Hi All,

I have entered in many other forums, and recently I have entered in this specific forum and believe me this one his really hot.

All I can say is that I have learnt more about this subject just reading the different points of view from the different camps, than in any other forum that I have visited on the web.

What normally happens in other forums, people are a biased towards the products that are being promoted (or sold) on that site.

What is really happening here is that the opponents are playing and showing us all the cards, the good cards as well as the bad cards. On biased sites you hardly (or never) get to see the bad cards.
In other words you don't get to know the negative points, the flaws, the bugs, the drawbacks, and so forth, of the product or technology and therefore you will be influenced to take the path that best suits the promoters of that forum.
For this reason I want to thanks Ethen and Kurt for educating me in this field so that I now can think and judge for myself what products fits my needs and my budget best.
To conclude, please continue to educate me even more, but please do it within the rules of the game, do not take off your gloves or head protection, nor hit your opponent below the belt.

We are the judges and it is up to us to judge who the winner will be.
As in any boxing match not all judges share the same view of the fight. The only view they all share is that if one of the opponents fails to follow the rules of the game he will be disqualified by all the judges.

It is a very close match, two rounds to go........ but it seems that there will not be a knockout this in this fight.

Kurt and Ethan,

you are both a class act.

My hat is off to you

Sincerely

Rod

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
littledog,
$500 will buy 3 minitraps.. with that you can cover at best (I don't know the exact dimensions) maybe 20 sq feet. $500 will buy 120 sq feet of 4" foam. Not only will this 120 sq feet of foam bass trap my room but it will also do a lot of the mid band absorption in the front of the room in a LEDE set up. So my comments were addressed to that . I contend that in my situation (and many other that are in similar situations) $500 of 4" foam will do more than 3 minitraps, in terms of coverage. Yes I freely admit that 3 minitraps will do more bass trapping in the deep bass, (which I don’t need) but they don't provide absorption for one end of the whole room. If anyone would read the whole thread and just take what I have said as it is rather than attempt to interpret it into something else, it would be obvious that this is what I have been saying all along.

OK, I read the whole thread (at one point), and thought that bass trapping WAS the issue being discussed. If I was wrong about that, I apologize.

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:

The truth be told, I have not said anything negative regarding Ethan’s products. I challenge you to go through all these threads and find one disparaging comment from me regarding any of Ethan’s products... I have no financial gain or loss at stake and at this point don’t really care what those of you who are too thick to get what I have trying to say, think of me.

Well, again maybe I misinterpreted your negative comments as directed at Ethan's products, which is not that much of a stretch, given the context of the thread. "Conspicuous consumpiton, waste of money... etc." SEEM like disparaging comments, but perhaps I am being too thin skinned.

From just your very last post alone:

"Go ahead and waste your money."

"If you want to spend 3 or 4 times as much as needed to do acoustic treatments to satisfy some ootie tootie sensibilities, by all means do it! If you want to fill your racks with ten pieces of rack garbage instead of one quality piece of gear, go for it. Go ahead and make your studio all show and no go. I, at this point, simply don’t give a shit anymore. I am just about done trying to help any of you."

Nothing negative there? It's true you don't actually mention mini-traps in those sentences, but am I really the only person here interpreting those remarks to mean that buying minitraps is wasting your money and analagous to filling your racks with garbage or buying designer junk for name-value only?

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:

Just last week littledog was a contributor to a shit thread at Gearslutz where they were trying to run down RO. Chris and I went over there and tried to straighten them out and now lo and behold, after an absence of several months, here comes littledog, sniffing around and attacking me. I can assure you if it weren’t me, it would be someone else. If the rest of you wish to simply sit on your hands and let these people ruin RO, then so be it. I have done all that I can. But if you care about RO and the level of communication and civility we have had here to this point, now is the time to tell them to shut up and go away. We need all the members to start doing this. The mods here have done all they can to deal with these types and we are at the end of the line. littledog wonders why his/her profile was altered? Because you are not welcome here. That’s why.

Well, at last we are getting to the meat of the matter. Maybe others should go and read that thread. I have said nothing that wasn't 100% true (to the best of my knowledge), and called on you not to try and rewrite history. You graciuously invited Gearslutz members to check out the new "kinder/gentler" RO, and I obliged, only to find this thread which I in no way instigated, as it had already been running long (and ugly) way before i chimed in. As well as another thread about Neve where an informational reference to another forum was censored. (I had nothing to do with that either).

If anyone was really interested (and I don't think anyone could p[ossibly be that desperate for entertainment) they can do a search and re-read the body of my contributions from the last couple of years. I think they will find that I, at least at one point, was a model citizen who contributed greatly to the spirit, knowledge, humor, and quality of life around here.

You said you have the right to respond when you feel an inaccuracy or injustice is done, and I would like to think I have the same right. But you are a moderator and I am not, so perhaps I am incorrect.

Anyway, when my i.d. was deleted, I e-mailed Chris and asked if it was intentional. He gave a kind of nebulous answer, saying it "could have been", or it could just have been a server/software problem. I told him I have no intention of inflicting myself where i wasn't wanted, if that was his intention. I also posted a question in the lounge to the same extent which no one has, as of this moment , replied to.

I am not a troll. In many other forums my presence is enjoyed and valued. I only ask that whoever deleted me just be "man" (or woman) enough to tell me straight out that they did it, and why.

I admit to being sarcastic in some of my responses. It is an occasional response that i have to double standards and doublespeak. If that is enough to get banned, so be it.

But whatever I did to outrage the community, I don't think it deserves being knifed in the back. I respect Rod, for instance, for saying to my face he doesn't appreciate my tone. I have no problem with taking constructive criticism. I respect JSlator for his knowledge, and sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with him. But I am not in any kind of conspiracy with him to destroy the tone of this board.

Seems to me that skins are very thin here. You want to legislate harmony? That's cool, if that is what people really want. Stephen Paul is not exactly mister diplomacy, but we all make exceptions for genius, so that I can understand. And of course, when two moderators start fighting, that must pose a real dilemma! But I guess it's ok, just as long as no one else chimes in...

This is getting way too long-winded, so let me just try to wrap it up...

I don't know Kurt, and I assume Kurt doesn't know me. I'm sure he's a great guy 99% of the time, which is what some people have said about me. (Although maybe not here, recently...) If I have personally offended him, I apologize. I'm sure there's a lot I can learn from him.

But it's hard for me to be part of a forum where i feel constrained from pointing out intellectual inconsistancies. I know my "breezy and irreverent" style can wear thin on some. So if you want me out, just tell me to my face.

But I think if I am going to be judged, it should be on the body of my historical contributions to this or other forums. And then just have the decency to level with me.

Oh, yeah, one more thing...

If you do decide to let me stay, I'd like my i.d. back.

On the other hand, if you kill me off, I hope I can assume you'll have the decency to delete "great site, i'll post more" from under my corpse.

....

As this thread slowly closes down or loses steam, I would like to note that while Ethan may benefit by eventually selling products based on the recognition he gets from his postings here, he also does a GREAT deal to share his knowledge with others who would like to DIY at no cost.

In fact, Ethan directly answered everyone of my posts about my special room situation and suggestions for treatment. He went as far as to provide alternative ideas for dimensions and set ups... All for nothing.

I hope someday to buy some of his products, but for now, on my budget, I was able to get my room treated for about $5-600 in 703, fabric and wood.

Thank you Ethan.

Jim

Originally posted by jdier:
I would like to note that while Ethan may benefit by eventually selling products based on the recognition he gets from his postings here, he also does a GREAT deal to share his knowledge with others who would like to DIY at no cost.

What he said.

You do share a whole lot with us Ethan, and i join JD in thanking you.

Rod

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
People like littedog and J Slator are in the process of ruining RO by nitpicking and stirring shitpots. They offer nothing but opinion and it is usually in the direction of attempting to discredit someone else who has been trying to contribute something positive. They are simply detractors. They have come here to do this with an agenda. They are on a mission.

Kurt, get over it. When you post something that doesn't make sense and someone calls you on it, that doesn't mean they're "on a mission" to ruin RO or that they are here to persecute you. What will ruin RO though is censoring posts, deleting posts and deleting users who disagree with you. At that point this place ceases to be a forum for discussion and simply becomes "The Kurt Foster Show". And I don't think that's in anybody's interests.

Message CENSORED. This was a disparraging comment aimed at a member. As a personal attack it is not within the guidelines of RO.. Please read "The [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Rules[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Rules[/]".

[ July 01, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Originally posted by jett rocker:
Message CENSORED. This was a disparraging comment aimed at a member. As a personal attack it is not within the guidelines of RO.. Please read "The [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]Rules[/]="http://www.recordin…"]Rules[/]". KF

-Jtt

Jett,

I would argue that this sort of treatment of anyone is unsecessary..... going to the level that one deplores is not a way to bring anyone around to where you would want them to be in the 1st place.

to quote Rodney King...... "Can't we all just get along?"

Rod

[ July 01, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

By the way - there is one last thing that i would like to point out to everyone that is following this -

Ethan and Kurt have put this behind them - they are being professional and courteous to each other.......... so seeing as they are done with this - why don't the rest of us just let it go as well........

Hoping you all have a great day

Rod

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
littledog,
$500 will buy 3 minitraps.. with that you can cover at best (I don't know the exact dimensions) maybe 20 sq feet. $500 will buy 120 sq feet of 4" foam. Not only will this 120 sq feet of foam bass trap my room but it will also do a lot of the mid band absorption in the front of the room in a LEDE set up.

$500 will allow you to build 10 full sized traps from Ethan's site, which will give you about 160 sq feet of coverage and will smoke any foam treatment you can do, period. Brad, That is correct. However I have repeatedly stated that I am not a good carpenter and that I lack the facilities to do any kind of construction. I need a ready made product that is simple to install. I do not disparage Ethan’s products, on the contrary I think they are very good. But while Ethan’s traps do a very good job of bass trapping they do nothing in terms of absorption. So after the traps were built and installed, absorption would have to be addressed. This is not the case with the foam traps I designated. But my room is fairly large and doesn’t need a lot of trapping. So in my situation, as even Ethan has conceded, a little foam is all that is called for. This is all I was ever saying. That and that not all foam is a fire hazzard.

Originally posted by J. Slator:

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
People like littedog and J Slator are in the process of ruining RO by nitpicking and stirring shitpots. They offer nothing but opinion and it is usually in the direction of attempting to discredit someone else who has been trying to contribute something positive. They are simply detractors. They have come here to do this with an agenda. They are on a mission.

Kurt, get over it. When you post something that doesn't make sense and someone calls you on it, that doesn't mean they're "on a mission" to ruin RO or that they are here to persecute you. What will ruin RO though is censoring posts, deleting posts and deleting users who disagree with you. At that point this place ceases to be a forum for discussion and simply becomes "The Kurt Foster Show". And I don't think that's in anybody's interests. Jay, Here you are again, stirring a sh*tpot just as I pointed out in the post that you quoted. Thank you for proving my point! If I say something that confuses you, simply ask what I meant and I will dumb down my response and explain or say excuse me I was wrong. But you don’t have to make observations like “losing credibility”. That is an attack. As I said in another thread, I stand on my accomplishments. If you don’t care for the content of RO, there are plenty of other sites that aren’t the “Kurt Show”.

BTW I do not engage in deleting posts on the whole, or for that matter censoring them. There are stringent guidelines set for moderators regarding this and they have been posted for the moderators in the mods corner. However, Alan Hyatt is exempt from this. We welcome Alan here and don’t expect him to have to subject himself to abuse and having his products slammed in public. Alan’s presence is a unique situation and no other BB on the web has this type of manufacturer representation. The ability of our members to speak directly to the owner of a large equipment manufacturer is unprecedented on the Internet and some accommodation has been made to ensure that Alan can continue to participate. Without the accommodations, I would venture to say that in a short time, Alan’s stockholders and dealers would be questioning the wisdom of his participation on RO. I say this from experience. This has happened before with a large dealer who was present here for a while. So keep in mind, all of you, that when you are in Alan’s forum, this applies.. take it with a grain of salt. In exchange for our ability to interface with Alan, he will be promoting his products and he will eliminate anything that is a blatant flame against him, his company or his products. That’s just how it is and whining and sniveling about it accomplishes nothing.

....

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
Jay, Here you are again, stirring a sh*tpot just as I pointed out in the post that you quoted. Thank you for proving my point!

Actually, I had absolutely nothing to do with this thread until you dragged me into it by taking a shot at me for no apparant reason. I respond, and that makes me the shit disturber? Give your head a shake, man.

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
But while Ethan’s traps do a very good job of bass trapping they do nothing in terms of absorption. So after the traps were built and installed, absorption would have to be addressed.

You should probably read up on them a little more - the plans include mid/hi freq absorbers. Brad, What you said was in regards to the traps. Yes I know there are plans for absorbers too but once again, this does not address my issue with not having the carpenter skills, tools or space to construct them. I also have concerns regarding the fiberglass particulate contamination and ensueing cancer problems.

I will stress again, I need a simple, ready made, easy to apply solution. I am not knocking Ethan's products but rather, I am only saying that in some applications, foam may be just the ticket. Kurt

Kurt,

> So in my situation, as even Ethan has conceded, a little foam is all that is called for.

Well, I'm sure four MiniTraps would serve you better than foam, if only because they absorb to a lower frequency. I do agree that from your description you may not need a whole lot of low end treatment regardless of which product you choose. But we've been through that already. :D

I will mention that I just did a cost analysis on MiniTraps versus LENRD foam corners, and it turns out that MiniTraps actually cost less per unit of absorption at low frequencies. I would have done the same analysis on Foam by Mail's corners, but they don't list absorption data as Sabins which is what really defines how effective they are.

--Ethan

PS: I forgot to mention, the cost per Sabin comparison table is on my site.

Actually my post was entirely joking---and fairly obviously so........... If sarcasm is a foreign language to you all----maybe the sunglass smiley guy should have helped.

Anyways I'm off to torture small animals (which is a joke, no need to call the cops.)
:roll:
-Jtt

Jtt,
Mmmm-kay.. I did not know that. No harm done and no offense taken. It is very hard to determine what peoples intentions are without being able to hear the tone of their voice, read body language and facial expressions. Kurt
:p:

I did a cost analysis comparing fiberglass to foam on another forum. Here is the information. You need no carpentry skills.
__________________________________________________

"For my fiberglass absorbers I currently use muslin (very cheap and available in different colors) I'll make a thin (.25") frame around the edges to keep them from damage and using spray adhesive wrap them in the fabric like a present.

Since the 703 that I get is a 2" x 2' x 4' I'll double the thickness to get an absorber that will totally absorb flat (.99) down to 125hz.

Total cost

fiberglass 2 @ 7.04 = $14.08
fabric $2.00
wood, leftover stuff 0
total $16.08

8 sq ft

price/sq. ft. $2.01
_________________________________________________

The 4" auralex is has better performance than the 2" , but the fiberglass still out performs it.

The 4" is total down to 500hz, at 250hz it is .5 and at 125 it is .27

48sq ft for 249.95

Price/sq. ft. $5.20

compared to fiberglass at $2.01/sq. ft. and doesn't absorb as well I'd go with fiberglass.

_________________________________________________

I did some minor edits.

Eric

Hi Kurt:

I promised Rod I would keep a low profile for a while, so please don't automatically assume my observations have an ulterior motive of diminishing the quality of life around here.

I think I have an overall decent relationship with Alan. Even though we've debated heatedly in the past over a couple of things - it was all good clean fun. So, purely in the interest of fun with no mean-spirited intent, (continued boring disclaimers and groveling, etc.) may we light-heartedly examine the following statement from our fearless/peerless moderator...

"Alan’s presence is a unique situation and no other BB on the web has this type of manufacturer representation. The ability of our members to speak directly to the owner of a large equipment manufacturer is unprecedented on the Internet..."

Technically you are correct, in that this may be the only forum where Alan has moderator powers. But if there is a bigger forum-slut than Alan Hyatt (and I say that with love, as a forum-slut myself) , I'd like to meet them. His forum presence is legendary, almost mythical. Someone could post a comment about a Studio Projects mic on some tiny bulletin board in Albania, and within an hour, Alan will personally respond to it!!!

So forgive me for the general hilarity when you say this is the only place on the internet where someone can interact directly with Alan. A more interesting question would be, is there a place on the internet where someone can NOT interact directly with Alan? :D

Again, PLEASE don't think I'm trolling or trashing Alan. (Kidding him a little, yes... )

Wait, HELP! Alan! Quick! Tell them we're old bud's... they're pulling the plug on me again!
AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..............

Littledog,
First I would like to apologize for losing my temper yesterday. Your point is taken, but RO is the only place where you can guarantee that a post to Alan will be read. Also Alan is becoming disenchanted with several other forum BBs and is hanging here more than ever. And we're GLAD to have him.. Thanks for the input..

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
Littledog,
First I would like to apologize for losing my temper yesterday. Your point is taken, but RO is the only place where you can guarantee that a post to Alan will be read. Also Alan is becoming disenchanted with several other forum BBs and is hanging here more than ever. And we're GLAD to have him.. Thanks for the input..

Maybe you're right now. But there was a time when you could have written something about one of Alan's products, wadded it up into a spitball, and shot it from the stern of an ocean liner in the middle of the Pacific, and Alan would have responded to it before it hit the water. What can I say? The man is a bulletin board GENIUS!

God i love it when the kids are playing nice together.......... :p :p :p :p :p

Originally posted by Rod Gervais:
God i love it when the kids are playing nice together.......... :D

I'm in a wierd time zone.

It's BEER thirty here! (comes a few hours before dark thirty!)

:c:

Besides, there is no way I could sleep right now, I'm going to see Peter Gabriel tonight! ( Been a fan since the early Genesis days and never have seen him.)