Hi Alan,

Digital is by far better than cassette recording at most all levels. I would look into a MAC G4/1 gig w/512 meg of ram. Run DP3 for your recording software with a Motu 2408 as the interface. Native platinum bundle with mastering. One Presonus Digimax connected to the 2408 through Adat light pipe. You will need one Glyph 80 gig rack mount external drive. The trick to running computer based software is to load your programs on the internal drive and save all your projects/files to the 80 gig or another drive. Keeps things fast and holds down lock ups. You will also need a console for many reasons. One, record monitoring without latancy and effects to the headphones (monitoring) without recording them. Also the warmth that comes from a good console. It will also give you more control of your mixes. I would look at the Soundcraft M12 or M8, 12 or 8 mono mic/line inputs and 4 stereo inputs. Also it is digital out. The board has 100mm peterson faders that are very smooth for a console in it's price range. This would give you 16 simultaneous inputs.

Estimated cost: Not a quote.
MAC G4 - 1600.00
Motu 2408 With DP3 - 1100.00 - 1500.00
Presonus Digimax LT - 700.00
Native bundle - hmm, can't remember but it seems to be around 800.00 maybe.
Glyph - 800.00 - 1000.00
Soundcraft M12 - around 1200.00 I think
Soundcraft M8 - 800.00 again not sure, that sounds a little high.
Fastlane for midi - 50.00

I realize this is a little more than you showed for budget but I must say this is a smoking system. You could wait on the Digimax until later and just add a second internal drive for now or use the same 60 gig that comes in it. This would save you a good bit. Also, with a MAC you have less problems with lock ups anyway. So it's not a absolute must to have the second drive right now but I would add it as soon as you can. This would only allow for 8 simultaneous tracks recorded at one time. However, you could add two more say Digimax later without ading another 2408 for a total of 24 simultaneous inputs.

Ok, now how do you hook all this up. First the 2408 will will be the interface to the MAC patching in through firewire into the Motu PCI 324 card. The 2408 has 8 analog inputs and 8 analog outs all TRS (balanced). You would come out the direct out of 8 channels on the Soundcraft M12 into the 8 analog inputs on the 2408 allowing 8 of the 16 simultaneous inputs. Then patch the Digimax in through the adat light pipe input on bank "B" of the 2408. This allows for the other 8 digital inputs completing a total of 16 inputs simultaneous, the best of both worlds. The Glyph will patch into the system through firewire input/output. DP3 is very easy to install and setup and is a extremely strong recording system. You can more than likely do 60 plus tracks with effects, EQ, etc. without any problems depending on the effect or effects. The Fastlane is USB and again very easy to setup. PM me if I may be of assistance to you with this as I would be more than happy to help.

Note: you can stripe a track on your 8 track cassette recorder to sync up your midi to your audio tracks. Once the track is stripe and the start point is set it should lock up every time perfectly. Tip - allow 10 seconds before the audio track starts for everything to lock up good.

Cheers and Good Luck,

Or you could go with a PC with 2 Western Digital 80 gig IDE drives, a Frontier Dakota sound card, 2 Alesis ADAT converters and Cubase or Nuendo for less than 3K. I have a system like this and it kicks ass. It doesn't lock up. It doesn't crash. I can run over 24 tracks with eq, dynamics and reverbs on almost every track, submasters and the 2-bus with 20% CPU load and a system latency of 6 ms. (that is pretty good). You would need a couple of mic preamps or a small mixer as Kevin mentioned for the same reasons he brought up. If you were to go with the more expensive ones like the Soundcraft then you would be able to forgo purchasing outboard mic pres and just use the ones in the mixer. If you would prefer an all in one solution the Aardvark Q10 is a great system. It comes bundled with an 8 track recording software for about $1000. Class A pre amps and superior clocking design makes the Aardvark a great choice.

There is a lot of difference of opinion regarding Mac vs. PC but I have noticed that most of the folks that hang around here go with the PCs. For more information on computers you can get some great info from Opus and the gang over at the computer forum. There are a few die hard fans of Mac who will say thing like the Macs are more stable, faster but IMO that is not the case anymore. I think Macs inability to perform modifications and updates to the hardware is a definite drawback. With a PC as processors and Motherboards and other components are updated you can update your machine. With Macs there is almost no alternative except purchasing a new machine every 2 years. The only company that builds Macs is Apple. PCs are built everywhere by almost everybody. These are age old arguments.

There are a lot of alternatives that are much more cost effective. Large facilities need to spend cash and update their equipment every 16 months for tax reasons but for the home recordist this is not a good thing.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, the best advise I can offer is to familiarize your self with what is available and on the market, do some homework for a month or two before jumping in the pool. If I were in your position I would get about a dozen more opinions before I even started to think about a final decision. Kurt
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Go digital for what you want it's cheaper.

Recorder-Motu 2408 MK3 like 1000
Mixer- Tascam DM24 has not real great but acceptable demo Preamps also built in dynamics,
eq, and effects. like 2,200 without meter bridge.
Mics as far as Vocals and Acoustic guitar-Shure KSM 44 great mic for both vox and acoustic guitar
it's like 1,100 bucks
A computer well you probably have one since you are on this forum so that brings us to software
well you are probably on pc so i recommend
Cubase SX it's great it's 500 bucks
Waves Platinum Bundle for plugins I think It's on sale right now for 1,200 on Sweetwater or Pro Audio Design.
Now you will need
3 tdif cables
2 bnc cables
2 spdif cables
assorted mic cables and instrument cables
price on that all depends really.

As far as drums get Reason and The Drumkit from Hell sample library alltogether for both it's like
600
with reason as far as doing drum stuff you really don't need a midi interface.
But if you wanted one the Midisport 2/2 is great so you can use the midi capabilities on the dm24 also, 60 bucks
and of course you will need a keyboard get one of those cheapie ones at radio shack you aren't really looking for something with great sounds just midi capable.

A little over budget but hey it's really worth
it. This is what my friend has and he has actually done some really good stuff.
If you can though get a mac and go with DP3
I happen to think it is the best piece of software one can buy. there is alot more you will need but I wont scare you out of trying to get into recording (just think accessories)
those I think are the biggest expenses for anyone
it's not the hardware it's everything that you have to hook up to the hardware as far as cables and junk like that... a tuner,power conditioner,
hard drives, these are the hate to have to buy it but need it things. haha anyways I hope at least one thing off of this list helps you in your buying. Peace

good thread.

hehe, go Mac. ain't no comparison. You can upgrade no problem. I have a 9600, mix +++ with a G4 upgrade, waves bundle, an many other plugins plus 20 grand worth of imaging software in it and it is smoking. I use it for building RO, web design and making music. I can't wait to buy a new Mac. They are unix based and to me that say's a lot.
I think it's what you start with too. I tend to buy high end if I can. Too me that's a mac. But then again, I have never used a PC for anything other than a foot stool so I don't know for sure :D Sorry, I couldn't resist lol. Carry on, you guys were doing well until I popped in here.

;)

There are options to computers .. if you'd prefer to use your hands and some faders rather than a mouse as your tracking and mixing medium.

Also, keep in mind that most computers are not very quiet either ... if you went with some Adat XT-20's you'd save initial outlay, and keep the recording media costs at a low level .. these can later be patched via the MOTU into a cpu, and a simple but well thought out program like Cool Edit Pro could be used.

Then you can look at buying some nice mics, since you'll need a bunch if you intend to do drums and the other instruments you refered to.

You can also look at the Alesis 24 track hard drive digital recorder as a possible option to the Adats.... The console could be a variety of options .. the Panasonic digital console and the Alesis HD 24 track .. or a smaller Tascam or Yamaha digital console ...

If it sounds like I'm against using a Mac or PC for recording ... You're partly right! I'd suggest that any recording method you choose should be a vehicle for you to do the process quickly. In my experience I have noticed that more time will and does get spent on computers with cut and paste etc than perhaps should be. Many times a simple second take is far quicker. On the other hand you can't beat some options a computer can afford in say, the "mastering process", or in audio/video synch options.

I'd love to get away from my non-automated 32 track Soundcraft console, since having a "mix recall" would be a terrific help with some sessions .. but I'd have to have a hands on console like the Soundcraft so that I would not give up the ability for super quick mix moves .. and that leaves me looking at a $25,000 Sony console .. hope this gets you at least thinking in more than one direction?

Howdy

I'd put more money into the front end gear (mics and pres) because those are the tools that will be useful for a lifetime. Digital stuff is ever changing and you'll always be tempted to "upgrade" or keep up with the Joneses in some way.

So, since your budget is $3 to $5k, I chooe $5000.

Microphones: $850

3 Shure SM57s (around $200 for all three)
1 Neumann TLM103 (around $650?)

Pre-Amps $1150

1 FMR RNP ($500)
1 Speck MicPre 5.0 ($650?)

Audio Interface

MOTU 896 ($1200)

Computer

Can you use the one you have? That's a big advantage in that you know how it works and its paid for. Listening to other people argue about computer platforms is pointless. There are zealots on both sides that are more into the arguing than each platform's merit as "tools". I use both but my work requires it. If you like Mac, use Mac, if you like PC, use PC.

It costs whatever it costs. To work the way I want, I'll pay whatever it costs just the same as if I like playing Steinway instead of Baldwin.

Software $800

Again, a matter of preference. Download "lite" or demo versions and see which one suits you. They all do MIDI and Audio (basically). Your platform will dictate software to a degree (Logic is only on the Mac, for example). For "full" versions, you'll spend around $800. Smaller versions cost less.

Mixer $300

I dunno, find a used Mackie or something for line level stuff. Around $300

Spend the remaining $700 on cabling, stands, backup drives, a MIDI interface and a cue mix system.

Hi all,

Ok, we sell both PC's and MAC. The normal starting point for most folks is a 4 track, then to Adat or outboard HD recorder, then to computer on our side of the world. They will argue that they like their PC and would like to try something like Vagas, Cakewalk or Cool Edit Pro. Then without fail they will call or come back complaining how they can't get that sound. So they buy outboard gear and plug-ins. They go away for a while and before long are back complaining again. Then! a lightbulb will go off in their heads and they come up with a great idea to get a MAC and DP3 or Protools. They purchase it then leave and never come back or call again concerning the system unless to say "thanks again," this happends every time. Have you ever heard of someone going back to PC from a MAC. Very Rare! As a matter of fact in more than 20 years of dealing pro audio gear this has never happend to us. It's quite the opposite.

I would not say PC recording is bad, I'm saying if you are starting a new studio then do it right the first time. MAC's are faster and more reliable than PC's we know because we are the guys who have to service these accounts. PC's are around 4 times slower than MAC and that is a known fact throughout the entire professional industry. Trying sending a top notch studio a project on PC. Most of the time you will be told "we don't deal in PC recording, we only use MAC" "I wish we could help you". So don't go and throw your PC away, use it to access the internet or download a picture or a song. Buy a MAC and save your money for mic's, stands, cables, etc. you get the idea.

Cheers,

Kevin,

> MAC's are faster and more reliable than PC's

That's the silliest thing I've seen in a long time. You can make great music on either platform, and the quality of sound has more to do with the room and your technique than what brand of computer you use. Windows has the registry and services to deal with, and Macs have extensions. To use either platform successfully you have to know what you're doing!

--Ethan

Maybe after buying the Mac and Protools, they had to sell their car and couldn't return to the store. I use a PC with Sonar and a MOTU 828. I have Mac and Protools users in disbelief all the time because I can get the same if not superior sound quality compared to their setups. :eek:

themidiroom

PC's are around 4 times slower than MAC and that is a known fact

Sorry, in all due respect I'm going to have to chime in here and say that this is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard in a long time. If you want to spend less time configuring your computer get a mac. If you want to spend more money get a mac. If you're tired of greek error messages on a PC get a mac. Is the price difference worth it? In my opinion no. Unless you want to use a program that's mac only (new versions of Logic) or you're just more comfortable with one. But then again I like to get under the hood. Switch out motherboards, overclock the CPU, etc, and have lots of competitive choices for components. For the same amount of money and a little knowledge you could put together a computer yourself that would smoke a G4 and it wouldn't be as noisy as a hairdryer either. Sorry, it is not my intent to bash macs. They are good computers and they work well and I have no problem with folks that decide to use them. I only object to false information when the two systems are compared. While it was once true that all audio pros used macs this is no longer the case. Economics is a driving force and it is my belief that unless mac prices start to come down PCs will dominate in pro audio in a very short time. I would bet that 80% of the folks on this board are PC users. It would not make any economic sense for facilities to ignore work done on PCs.

Howdy

Before this becomes another "Platform Thread", can we simply say that "both platforms allow you to record music containing more tracks, processing and procrastination than necessary, chose the one that runs the software you prefer."?

I agree with Nate and Ethan.
I personally use only Macs, because I like them and find them very stable and they suit my needs. I don't know enough about the math as to why one platform would be better, so I cant comment. All of the studios in my area use them (Macs) and all my friends use them, so I have built in Tech support. And that is a nice safety net to have.
Regardless of my love of Macs, I think It would make sense to find out what most of your friends are using if you all want to stay on the same platform or in the event of a crash some one can help you out.
So try out your friends machines and software and see what you like, and how it woks. and choose what is best for YOU and the way that YOU work..
I had Sweetwatter do a custom install for me and I use that G4 for nothing other than Pro Tools, no internet no Desk top Publishing. Just PT, I've only added plug ins. that way I have an Audio only machine, no other clutter.

The computer after all is a tool, and a tool is something with which to do a job.
Peace,love and good mixes,
NoteFarm

( said with a Cheeky grin - "but I do think you should by a Mac" if nothing else, just to stop Gates geting his fingers on you hard earned $$$$$") ;)

Why get a computer at all.

Get one of the all in one Roland digital recorders, a decent mic pre, a "money" vocal mic matched to your lead vocalist, and spend the rest on mics and direct boxes for the instruments. Get a Bass Drive DI for the bass.

If it's vocal based music, put your money where your mouth is.

You've been using an 8 track cassette deck. The learning curve will be much shorter with an all in one recorder. If you use a good mic/pre combo, the Rolands sound pretty darn good. The Yamaha aw4416 is nice but they are NOT user friendly. I have a friend that makes great recordings, but watching him struggle with the menus and hidden commands makes me want to puke.

Computers are cool. As long as you don't mind spending time that you could be recording to get it configured/working/and yourself trained to operate it. Then of course it's just in time to have to load the new OS and start over. (That said, you can do amazing things with computer based systems.)

If you are already VERY computer literate, a computer is a choice to consider. If not, you'll be better off buying a recording device and spending your time recording.

just my 2 yen

Flood,

> Why get a computer at all.

Excellent point. I happen to prefer a computer over a stand-alone recorder for many reasons. But I also recognize that computers are not for everyone.

In the old days if you wanted to run even a small semi-pro studio you had to know how to align and demagnetize tape heads, set the bias, and do at least some equipment troubleshooting. It's a lot easier today, but there's no getting around the need to develop some technical chops. Either that or be dependant on others to do everything for you - no doubt at great expense!

--Ethan

Macs work well, so do PCs. But Macs have closed architecture and are not “upgrade friendly”. They also cost about 40% more at best. I bought a Dual AMD 1800+ with 1 gig of ram, 2 WD 80 gig drives, dual head video card (so if I want, I can run 2 monitors) for 1600 bucks! A comparable Mac would have been $3500

The reason Macs became so entrenched and the “defacto standard” was because up until about 2 years ago, the only system that could truly run 24 + tracks with a lot of effects, eq’s and instances of dynamics was a Mac with Pro Tools. This wasn’t because Macs were more powerful but rather because Pro Tools TDM systems come with extra cards that help share the load with the computer. Pro Tools would only run on Macs. Apple and Digidesign built a user base in the professional studio world.

Now days however PCs, with the introduction of more random access memory, have become very fast and powerful and capable of running some very sophisticated programs without the aid of extra cards to help provide processing power. This is called “Native Power”. Now we have a choice and PCs are just as viable in the world of audio. The system I outlined will perform just as well as any other at a substantial cost savings which can then be plowed into the things that matter, like mics, monitors and front end gear.

As far as not getting into computers, get on the bus or you will be left behind. Everyone I have ever met that used a stand alone all in one system became dissatisfied with it at some point. …..Kurt
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Some people buy because they like the way the machine works. To some people, that's worth $2400 and even more. Not everything is about specs. Buying a computer because of its specs as a little like buying a microphone because of its frequency plot.

Hi All,

I realize that most of the folks on this site use PC based recording systems. And there is nothing wrong with that but your facts here are misconstrued. Ethan I would strongly recommend you research this a little further. There are several things that sperate a MAC and a PC concerning their respected speed. One, the CPU in MAC is buy far more efficient , secondly, the OS operating system is much more efficient as well. Also, MAC are less likely the crash. These are all proven facts. We are not just some guys with a studio here we are professional studio designers and consultants. We outfit more studios in one year than most other design/install companies in the USA. We also know the facts we presented are correct. I can appreciate your feeling the need to defend the system you currently use but again you need to do more research.

This has been discussed on many forums before and I realize this is a forum based on smaller home project studio's.

John, what do you base your comments about my comments being BS. Again I really believe you fellows need to do your home work. This is what we do for a living all day not just when we get home for our day jobs. You do not stay in this business over 20 years and retain a reputation as our company has buy talking BS. As far as MAC's being more expensive, trying putting together a PC that may even try and keep up with a MAC. You will spend a great deal more in doing so. You will also have a great deal of more problems.

I am going to end this conversation as far as my participation in this thread as it feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. Education is key, talk to me when you sell as many recording systems as we do! We average around 70 to 140 recording systems a year and have for many years. Topic closed in my book.

Cheers,

I realize this is a forum based on smaller home project studio's.

There are large studios here too lol but like Kurt says, they are petering out because of what's happening in A/V technology. More and more musicians are becoming self sufficient (DAW musicians). The world is 90% PC so debating over what OS is best always ends up with the obvious, majority appears to rule. There are more PC users in every forum/ room, office, world etc. So I just have fun poking at the PC users. Kevin is right, Nate, Ethan etc. We've been through this a lot of times and it always ends up in an OS flame with a ralley of PC users in the end. IMO, you pay for what you get. To me the subtle differences with Macintosh are what adds up to why we are so loyal and sure about it as a professional working tool. Mac users are willing to pay extra for this. Like a car, we'll get there in the end. Everything has it's pros and cons. I think the big question is, if I was to choose an OS system for "recording music" and it was offered to me for free, which one would I pick?

My answer would be:

Mac
excellent pre and mics
control board
monitors etc.

Why? I like to get to where I'm going fast, safe, fun and reliable. :D

I'm with Kevin!

Oops, I did it again :D ....... back to business.

:w:

Hi ,Alan!

Let's face the things in the curve of what you learned with a cassete multitrack.May be to stay in hardwear area will be convinient to you.I would sugest at first to buy some multitrack/Fostex VF160,Akai etc./You have 16 physical chanels.You may use it also for AD/DA converter to PC,Mac.Anyway you need a decent mixer desk and in my opinion Cubase can't replace it.So for recording you can use some good chanel strip device with preamp and compresor.
But for PC or Mac set-ups I sugest RME HAMMERFAL soundcart and Motu 2408,or RME AD/DA converters.
For drums sounds ,well it's my place I use Triton,but there are some sampler decisions using Sample CD's
I like a lot Lexicon MPX500 or TC M-ONE for EFX processor.
About mics - Rode NTV,but for guitar I use SM57,MarshalMXL 1000 or 2000- one can say they are cheap-YES!But our guitar player likes the sound we record:)

Best regards!

Donny

http://www.popcorn.dir.bg

Kevin, I have no axe to grind and I think people should use whatever they personally like. It's all the same to me. There are 5 computers in my living space (both home and work) one of which is a Mac G4 running pro tools so it's not that I'm not familiar with them. When I opened a public studio I decided instead to build my own computer and I went with the PC platform. It cost me a total of 1200.00 including monitor and it works great. No problems here. It was a great learning experience and I consider this my "pro" machine. As far as doing my homework I always keep current with the new stuff coming out.
Please don't get offended. I have nothing against you or your company. I'm sure you have a fine business and have lots of integrity. However I had to respond to this statement...

"PC's are around 4 times slower than MAC and that is a known fact throughout the entire professional industry."

This is certainly not a known fact. Nor a fact at all. I think it would be impossible to find even one educated person that would agree with this let alone the entire industry. Please don't take this personally. We're all brothers here on RO in search of better audio performance.

Hi John, Chris and everyone,

It's very true that people will work very hard to defend what they are using. IT's like putting a bunch of guitar players in the same room and listen to them go... haha. It's really hard to explain in a forum all the ins and outs of a mac verses pc. I wish I had more time but anyay here goes...

We did a CPU comparision between a MAC G4 800 and a P3 800. Same ram same HD, etc. We were able to load on around 80 tracks with at least 8 band para EQ and 2 effect per channel on playback on the MAC with DP3 a 800.00 program. The CPU was clocking around 75 - 80%. BTW a 1 gig MAc is around 1300.00 right now new. Then we began to load tracks into the PC using I think Cool Edit Pro. At around 28 tracks the box was topping out. Ok, now this is very funny when both are being said to be equal. I'll get back with you guys later. I got to get Roger to the airport.
Think on that and have a great day!

Cheers,

Howdy

In my opinion, anyone who wastes time crusading for their computer platform misses the point entirely. Its not about which machine has the BESTEST SPECS EVER! Its about which one you prefer using.

Let us remember the good Doctor who posed the initial question. Buy whatever computer you prefer using, It doesn't matter as much as the gear that comes in front of it.

I posted this in my forum last week but here's an interesting piece of gear for home studio "DAW" peeps:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://messe.harmon…"]Yamaha O1x[/]="http://messe.harmon…"]Yamaha O1x[/]

You get some pres, processing, control surface, MIDI interface for around $1500(?) retail. I believe it even comes with VST versions of its internal plugins so you can offline a mix into your portable (or whatever) and have the same sound without the O1x.

No idea how it sounds, but I wish more manufacturers would make something like this.

Kevin, That's not much of a scientific test comparing track counts on platforms running totally different software. Who in the world uses a P3 to run a DAW anymore anyways? For the price of the Mac you could buy a much faster PC than that old P3. I thought this was about doing your homework and staying current. Here's a real test for you. Take Fats' dual processor AMD PC and run it against the more expensive G4 using the same audio software (for example Nuendo that works on both platforms) and it will smoke the G4 in track counts and plugins. The bottleneck in the G4 is the system bus. This is not about comparing the chip speed. It's about being able to buy a much faster chip on the PC platform for the same amount of money. Here's a good example of a Daw company thats building some of these machines. http://recording.org/resources/recording-computers.300/

Kevin,

> Ethan I would strongly recommend you research this a little further.

I know all about Macs, and several of my friends use them. One friend's Mac crashes every half hour. He can't even open songs in Cubase without crashing. He has to click the file name to launch Cubase - if he wants to open another song he has to close Cubase and click the next one. Using Open from within Cubase crashes. Another friend's Mac also crashes every time I go visit him [he blames it on me being there!], though it doesn't crash quite as often as the other guy's Mac. And these are all hard crashes that require a power down, not just an app that ends with an error.

> the CPU in MAC is buy far more efficient

That simply is not true. There are pros and cons to both RISC and CISC, and neither is clearly better than the other.

> the OS operating system is much more efficient as well.

That really is not true. Both are complicated systems comprising many layers of code.

> Also, MAC are less likely the crash.

See above. I'll also mention that my Windows computers never crash. Or so rarely that it's just not an issue. To use either platform successfully you have to know what you're doing. You have to know how to remove all the unnecessary junk that comes pre-installed on all computers. You have to know how to get under the hood and optimize the system for audio recording. And so forth.

> These are all proven facts.

Only in your mind.

> I am going to end this conversation

That's a really sorry excuse for not being able to back up your statements. The point of a discussion board like this one is to discuss, not make outrageous and undefendable statements and then run away.

--Ethan

I'm convinced!

I vote we custom build a box, throw in some tools and sell the damn thing as The RO Box "built for the sound mind" Any business partners out there?

:D

You guys really crack me up... haha. What's happening here is no different than when I was on here for the first time about a month ago. Some of you said we don't know anything about live sound either. I haven't noticed any of you posting any of your pictures on the live sound forum yet. We seem to be able to back our word. And again I stand on my word because this is not a game for us. We really do this FULLTIME, for a living. Not just kicking around the house. Oh and technically speaking, I'm the president/CEO of my corporation I don't work on computers, I'm the guy who comes in to listen when it's finished. However, I do know what I'm talking about here. What was it you said Ceder, "anyone can build a web site, we are really not a company", " you haven't seen enough to believe we are what we say we are". I'll tell you what, I give up because the level here is such. Good luck to ya! I talk to you guys when your ears aren't so clogged with BS.

Peace Out......

Don't call us will call you.

P.S. All this over my trying to give Alan a little help, hmm. Somethings wrong here and I know what it is or should I say who it is. Smelling Bacon.

[ March 14, 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster / Cedar Flat Fats ]

Lets not loose sight of the fact it's just a *%@^ing tool.

As for those that seem upset that Apple cost so much even the displays, well, I like the way it looks, and I put a value in it, so I am happy to pay it, does that make me stupid ..No...does it make me a bad person ...no. It's look has value to me. It doesn't make it better or worse.
There are pieces of art that I think are terrible, but some one has deemed it valuable, so it costs a little more than other pieces . Because it has value to them.
Why do some luxury cars cost a little more than others, because some people put value on the little extras or the way it looks. It doesn't mean its a better car.

I just don't see the "cost" argument, caries any merit, when debating which is a better machine. It just seems to cloud the issue.

none of them come close to my my commodore 64 any way. Which I did get cheap, and I do have overclocked.
I’m going to watch "a how to use your Atari ST" vidieo on Beta Max too so Ill let you know what I learn

Know lets all shake hands and play nice.

Peace Love and Good Mixes to all

What NoteFarm said!

WTF, I was thinking I should close this thread because it was getting hot but I had hope in our members that it would turn into an open minded topic. I'm pissed off that we can't be civil here. Kevin, has the right to have an opinion and so does everyone else. Let's keep in mind that we're people with feelings. Kevin is new here and he deserves a warmer into than that. Quite of few just bounced on him. Everyone relax and shake.

Come on! :h:

To All,

Many, many thanks to *all* for your help on this question! I have learned so much from each of these responses, including the discussion about platforms, which, despite doctrinal differences, really does help to give a sense of where preferences are and why. I appreciate the time that you have put into these responses, and am going to gear up now to start to construct.

Your answers raise a few questions, which, if you'd care to respond, follow below:

1) If I decide to go the PC route, keeping cost in mind, which brand/configuration/size RAM/HD etc. would you recommend? I know that some have already mentioned this, but if you have any other suggestions, please feel free to respond.

2) If I decide to go the digital recorder route, is there one unit that you would particularly recommend? I tend to do a good deal of vocal and instrumental overdubs, so I suppose flexibility as well as sound is key. Again, some have already mentioned this, but if you have anything to add, please feel free.

Many thanks--you folks know your stuff.

Best,

Alan Lipman

Alan,
Sorry we digressed into a Mac vs. PC war! :D Like Yogi Berra once said, "It's like deja vu, all over agian." I at least hope it was an informative discussion. If you decide to go with a PC the first advice I would offer is don't go with a pre configured system from a company like Gateway or Dell. Not that they don't make good PCs, they do. But they build systems primarily designed for office work and Internet use. They load in a lot of software, intenet and video hardware that can cause conflicts and slow down a music computer. Maximum throughput is essential in a music app PC (Macs too!). Click over to the Computing Forum and have a chat with OPUS about your needs. You will have to look hard and long to find a better authority on PCs on the planet. Anything any of us here could say on the subject would most likely be something we learned reading OPUS' statements. Why drink from an old bucket when you’re standing next to the spring?

After you decide on the computer, the next step is to make a decision on what hardware you want to use. If you want more than 8 tracks in and out at one time (that is if you have a need to record more that 8 sources and once) that would preclude any of the all in one solutions such as Aardvark Q10 or the Pro Tools 001. Both the 001 and the Q10 come bundled with music software packages for around $1000. Actually the 001 offers more tracks and is more like $800 but the availability of external plugins is limited. I wanted to be able to record live rhythm tracks with pop combos so I decided I needed to be able to record 16 track / sources at once. I got a Frontier Dakota card for the computer and 2 Alesis ADAT AI3 converters for about $1100 at Guitar Center. This has been an excellent system for me, very affordable. There are many other solutions than what I chose but I didn’t want to spend much more than that because IMO this stuff becomes obsolete in just a short time. Unless your doing a lot of business, it is very hard to make this stuff pay for itself.

For software, I was able to pick up a new copy of Cubase 5.0 VST (an older but proven program) for around $300. This offers 24 bit at 48 or 44.1, as many tracks as I want, has automation with total recall and good set of eq's, effects and dynamics that work very well. I have been very happy with it and I came into computer recording from a 2” 24 track and large format console with lots of nice Urei and Manley outboard, all Lexicon reverbs (PCM 60,70,80 & 90’s) Drawmer gates, etc. Really a lot of the nicest stuff in project studio domain. But I have been happy with the system I described. I think this says a lot, as I was skeptical as to if I would be happy doing it “in the box” after having it so good in the analog world. I report that I have been pleasantly surprised.

That is what I have done and Kevin and others have given you specific systems to look at also. Most important is to have a go at the computer with OPUS. That should go first! You’ll be happy you did. I wish I had talked with him before I started. It would have saved me a few headaches and a few hundred bucks at least.. Good Luck, Kurt

It's not tje com[uter, it's the software you want to run. In my case it's Logic and a Mac is the best way to go.

I used to have a Roland VS all-in one. Great for portable recording, but that's not what i do. There are some advantages but after having done the Mac/Logic route, I so much prefer the computer.

It's not the clubs, it's the golfer.

-Marty

Good choice Alan! I know what Kurt is saying about outboard gear. We have both the PC/MAC and "old school" systems. SSL6000, 2"sony, MSR16 and tons of outboard gear. The surprising thing I found out about a lot of the computer plug-ins is that they sound better. Imagine that, haha. You can't go wrong either way, PC or MAC. I know you will enjoy the new system. Again, if I may assist you in any way please feel free to PM me. I'm not fixed on MAC it just happens to be my favorite. Good Luck and Have Fun!

Kevin M.

Kevin,
I didn't know you had a Sony 2" 16 track. I have a 16 track headstack I want to sell from a MCI JH 24. Interested? Kurt

Alan,

> If I decide to go the PC route, keeping cost in mind, which brand/configuration/size RAM/HD etc.

A lot of that depends on what you want to do and how deeply you want to get into it. If your main interest is audio, with no MIDI or sampling, then you can get by with a Pentium 4 at 2 or more GHz., 512 MB of memory, and one or two large hard drives. One 80 GB drive is a good choice, but two are even better. If you plan to use synthesizers and samplers you should get 1 GB of memory instead of 512 MB. And if you can afford faster than 2 GHz. by all means get a faster CPU. The faster the CPU, the more tracks and plug-ins [EQ, compressor, reverb] you can have.

I have to disagree with Kurt about brand name PCs. Yes, you can save a few hundred dollars by buying a motherboard and all the other components and building your own computer. It's not that hard if you're handy with electronics. But it's a lot of work, and there's a greater risk of buying incompatible parts like a sound card that doesn't work with your motherboard chip set. When you buy a Dell - my favorite, and I do know how to build a computer - you get parts that are guaranteed to work together. If they don't, you can send the whole thing back. But that's not likely to happen. And Dells are very quiet, which is important for an audio computer.

What Kurt said about getting stuck with lots of pre-installed software is absolutely true. But it's not that hard to fix. Then first thing I do when I setup a store-bought computer is format the hard drive and reinstall Windows from scratch. If that seems tricky it is, a little. But you have to do that if you build a computer too! And either way you'll still have to go through all the steps to optimize the computer for audio.

Finally, my audio programs of choice are Sonar for multi-track recording, and SoundForge for general stereo and mono editing. I do not have any outboard hardware anymore except a small mixer and my speakers. There are many advantages to doing everything inside one computer.

If you aren't sick of reading about this stuff yet :) go to my [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.ethanwin…"]Articles[/]="http://www.ethanwin…"]Articles[/] page.

Then look for "Striving for new lows" and also my recent three-part series from Keyboard magazine. Both are relevant to the issues we've been discussing here.

--Ethan

Logic on a Mac would be a good choice if you have plenty of extra cash laying around. Now that the program is Mac only I would expect future versions to be more intuitive than it is currently. The M box is an easy and cheap way to be compatible with all the Pro Tools systems out there. The great thing nowadays is that almost anything can do a superb job in capable hands. I really don't know of any computer platform or software that I would call "bad" nowadays. A lot of plugins are bad however. I would recommend a UAD-1 or Powercore or remain outboard. My guess though is that they may become obsolete when native systems get even faster and the native plugins become better. Some of the higher end waves stuff is actually usable.

Oh I also might mention that the Aardvark Q10 system can be stacked. You are not limited to eight inputs. You can buy another one and stack em in your rack for 16 inputs.

Alan,
If you go with Ethan’s idea, which btw is acceptable, be prepared to pull out the video card and replace it. Most the Dells and Gateways come equipped with video cards that tax the system and are way more than what is ever needed to run audio. If you want maximum track counts with lots of instances of eq, effects and dynamics maximum throughput is a necessity. Fancy video cards bog the system down. There are a number of tweaks that Opus outlines for configuring a computer and it would entail doing a complete removal of all loaded software and reinstalling it. That is part of the extra expense on a pre assembled and configured machine. Why pay for something you are just going to throw away? When you buy a Dell or Gateway or a Compaq they load windows in for you but you don’t get a copy for reinstalls. You can run off a copy but then you have all that stuff that you don’t need again. Meaning no disrespect to Ethan but seriously, Opus has forgotten about more about computers than Ethan or I know collectively. I strongly recommend you ask him about this aspect of your upcoming purchase. He can outline a quiet powerful PC for you with everything you need and without any extra “bloat”. Kurt

Hi all,

This is just one man's opinion. I feel a forum is a place that should give the poster many choices to choose from. I feel we should post our opinions without having to put another persons opinion down. Simply state what you like and that's it. Now if you have had a problem with another product then please share it. I see a forum to be like walking into a room of people and shaking hands and talking with each other. In these situatins we would act very different than on a forum. It's all about treating people the way you would like to be treated. With that being said, I apologize to anyone who I may have offended here and ask for your forgiveness. Peace to all!

Cheers,

Kevin M.

Kevin,
I appreciate your concern. I have no problem with Ethan citing examples of my comments and I don’t believe he has a problem with me citing his comments as well. Ethan and I have had many exchanges in the past and while we don’t always agree on everything I believe we have a mutual respect for each other. I feel both our points of view are valid and the best way to have a complete exchange of information to benefit readers is to be completely open and honest about any differing opinions we hold. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I do this. It is just for the benefit of the discussion. I think we can be civil while disagreeing on certain points. Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Thank you for your reply. My statement was not pointed at any paticular person, it was a general statement/opinion. I fail to see the good that comes out of disagreement. I don't see where that gives the poster the answers they need. To me it shows confusion and at times a lack of respect for our fellow posters/engineers. If I am wrong please show me from a moderators stand point how this is productive. Feel free to PM me in private.

Cheers,

Kevin M.

Wow! Mac.. PC ... I think this is missing the mark for the requested info from Doc.

So you don't endlessly just spend money thinking it's equipment that cures problems .. let's start with the concept that knowing how to use what you have comes from reading,experience, and the trial and error road of personal taste.

Here is my thoughts to anyone looking to get into recording:

1. Do you have any experience with mics, tape, computers, etc .. if so .. what is it?

2. Based upon the level of your experience and what you think you want to do, then equipment can be suggested... and actually in a kind of orderly fashion too, so that you learn what to do with each piecs you buy, and why you need it.

3. So, in Doc's case, if I assume that he knows what each type of mic pattern is, and why to pick one over the other, AND I assume that Doc has recorded something on some format before, and that's why he has "The Bug" .. my next question would be:

4. Do you prefer using you mouse, keyboard, and monitor as a tool in recording, or both of your hands at once, while not squinting at a display?
Either is fine, and either will get you to some end result .. depending on what you know and what your experience is.

5. Would you prefer to view different screens to access tracks, effects, and dynamic processing, or would you prefer knobs to twist?

6. Once the above is established, thinking about the WAY you would ENJOY doing this, then the rest is a matter of budget, and that highly dependent upon the number of tracks that you might record at the same time (ie: 2-4 tracks as opposed to say .. 12-18 at once).

You could easily buy a small mixer, adats, or small digital mixer and 24 track hd stand alone recorder, and then a few "flexible use" mics .. ones that would work well for vocals and accoustic guitar ... my 2 cents is, tell us what you have done that you like, and then I think you'll get even better info than what has been posted so far. I'm sure everyone will help, and many good points will come up, but in the end, it should be based upon the way you would truly enjoy doing it.