I just bought the 2035! The pad switch has been wonderful!

Guitarfreak wrote: I just went to my health spa and while I was there I wanted to check up on the AT 2035. The salesman...after looking around for 2 minutes, told me that it was in his educated opinion that the AT 2035 had been replaced by the 2050.

...long pause...

And I was all like no? and he was all like yeah. And I was like seriously? And he said yeah, the AT sales rep had told him personally that the 2035's were no longer being made.

...medium pause...

And I said how much is it? And he says $229 plus tax, and in the back of my mind I knew the 2035 was only $149 plus tax...not much of a replacement? Even if it DOES have switchable patterns.

Did he just happen to have the 2050 in stock? but not the 2035?

Seems odd that it took him that long to suddenly remember what the rep told him

It's definitely not discontinued. Sounds like he wanted to up-sell you.

That's exactly what I thought. I certainly knew that the 2050 had always been available. It threw me off when he called the 2050 it's 'replacement'. Then later after i asked him how much it cost, he changed up his game, started calling it an 'upgrade'.

Skip it. Go for the AT4050.

TheJackAttack wrote: Skip it. Go for the AT4050.

I don't have the budget for the 4050 at this time : very sad face. I'm now thinking that the 2050 is a better investment, but even then I'd have to save up to justify that being an expense.

Just out of curiosity, what is the problem with these mics? Why don't you like them? Are they noisy? Are they harsh sounding? What exactly is the reason why you think they aren't a good investment for me.

I certainly don't mean to sound rude or stubborn but even in my other thread you never really mentioned any specifics.

Thanks
-Jake

The low end of the AT line are truly entry level quality IMHO. I'd take most of them over the plethora of Chinese crap out there with very few exceptions. That said, for someone who is trying to burn through the learning curve such as yourself, you will soon find that you want to upgrade those mic's to better versions. They are NOT as good as the mid level and upper level AT or AKG mic's.

More importantly, since you have some Shure mic's already, there isn't any pressing reason for you to throw your money at something like an entry level condenser. Better to put that cash in your sock drawer and keep saving. No one has ever said that they wished they had started cheap.

Old Coot alert. Apparently this week is story week so ignore the rest if needed:

When I was in Chicago and busting my ass trying to make it in my first top 20 orchestra I had someone whom I considered my mentor. He knew more than JC about horns, horn history, horn design, horn players, who slept with who and where the bodies were. You get the idea. Anyway, I would constantly badger him with these "vintage" horns or these "great deals" I had found in hopes of finding a truly wonderful horn. Could I fix this up or was this some forgotten master's unknown gem. Finally he got fed up and told me to focus and spend that time on learning my stylistic interpretive skills and the horn in my hands. He told me the horn in my hands was a very good horn and if I really wanted something new and different to save. Everytime I had the urge to purchase one of these lost treasures stick that money in a savings account (or a sealed Mason jar under Funk & Wagnells front porch) and before I knew it I would be able to afford whatever horn I wanted.

Of course I only half listened just like you will no doubt ignore me and it was years of pro playing before I began waiting for the truly great deals to come my way. I still have never purchased a horn at full resale but I have 23 top grade professional horns vintage and modern.

It's a matter of waiting for the right equipment at the right time right place and having the saved money to leap at the opportunity.

Until then stop gap measures are a waste of effort and resources.

I guess I got wrapped up in memories and didn't put a moral in this story:

Buy the best gear you can buy at all times. This eliminates the possibility that it's the gear holding you back and forces YOU to hold yourself 100% responsible for the results of your efforts. No excuses. No crying.

I can definitely see the wisdom there. I have to admit, part of the reason I have been gassing for a condenser lately is that all of my mics are so similar that they all give me similar results. They are so close in frequency response that even when using intermediate mic techniques I still don't get a lot of sound variation. I have come to the realization that at this time my gear is holding me back.

Another reason for wanting to up it a little for the multi-pattern is that I want to try some advanced mic techniques, like mid-side or something. I have been getting interested lately in combination close/distance miking, but with a dynamic in the distance spot I'm not getting the high-mid/treble definition that I am looking for. Also the distance mic doesn't sound very dynamic and doesn't have much depth to it, it sounds pretty flat. Probably because it's my Audix i5, which also causes the high-mids to be harsh.

All this taken into account I am still not ready to buy. I definitely understand the need for quality. Thanks for your concern and honesty.

Thanks Jack

http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_FAT_HEAD_II.html

or the Blumlein pair. These will give you as much variation and will be better for your guitar work ultimately.

Would that Cascade Fathead be good in a distance mic position? From listening to the sound clips it sounds even darker than the SM57, however the Beyer M160 sounds like a good cross-tonal match IMHO.

EDIT: Dammit, I just checked the price on that M160 v_v

If you can afford a Beyer M160/M130 pair that IS the way to go. They are currently topping my very very short list of impending purchases (damn you Cucco and your ribbons! :-) ).

The Cascades are better than introductory level so are at least worthy of being stepping stones. As to distance mic's, perhaps Jeremy or Bob can address that better. I don't do hardly any amplified guitar stuff anymore. They will work on symphonies and chamber ensembles. I'd think they would work a hell of a lot better than an entry level AT or AKG mic.

Ribbons have the possibility to give very detailed recordings that are as un-digital as it gets.

According to their ribbon mic thread, the Cascades were hotter than the Beyers so could be a better choice for you until you upgrade your preamps. Or add a True P Solo Ribbon preamp to you chain.

Of course this all will take budgeting and goal setting. Don't try finding my secret stash under Funk & Wagnell's porch. I just blew it on a 1940's Alexander 5 valve Bb horn last year.

Jack makes some fine points there. I'll tell some of my story...

Although I was trying to build a full band studio capability, I was not far from where you are a couple of years ago.

I bought some entry condensers (MXL990 x2, AT2020, MXL603s x2). The only one that gets even barely semi-regular use is the 603s. Good OH mic, very nice on acoustic guitar. Diamond in the rough, although the M39 mentioned below has replaced it in most instances. Now I have two good pairs of SDCs.
On the impetus of another thread, I'm trying to find uses for my 2020. We'll see on Friday.

Then I bought some better mics (speaking of burning up the learning curve...) like a pair of 421s (cardioid), a pair of Fathead IIs (fig8), a pair of M39s (Cardiod, w/ pad and roll off) and a pair of AKG 414s (multi-pattern, multi-bass roll-off).
Those totalled me about $2200. Buy used, buy reputable, and buy with smarts and timing. Add in a bunch of 57s, 58s, and and e835. Another $700.
Another mic that gets some kudos from reputable peeps around here is the Bluebird. I also own one of those. Not perfect for everything, but very nice on certain things. Like any condenser, IMO (at least in our price range).

In summary, I really like all of the better mics I bought. The 421 and Fatheads are particularly nice on guitar amps (hint). And the 421 is very good on toms (fl tom in particular), male vocals, and bass cabs.
Get a pair of Fatheads and you can also use them as a blumlein pair like Jack suggested. I'm finding more and more uses for mine. Great as a change of pace from dynamics or condensers, especially when desiring a richer bottom end and a generally smoother sound. Think horns, strings, and voices. They threw the M39s in for free when I bought my pair.

Finally, if you are bound and determined to get a multi-pattern condenser, save up for the 414 (or something comparable). They can be gotten for around $600 used, and I treasure them as drum OHs. Also very nice for vocal mic, strings, and really anything. Not spectacular on everything, but good on just about anything.

I only mention these specific mics b/c these are the ones I have the benefit of trial and error with. I know the difference between $250 and $500 seems like a lot. It is, and it shows in the mics. Like Jack said, I've got nothing to blame now but myself (a few channels of better preamps makes sure of that). There's a reason some of those mics haven't seen the light of day in months.

Hopefully this helps. Forgo instant gratification for that which is more enduring. I did, and am grateful for it. Yeah, my wallet took a major dent, but if you're gonna spend the dough to be serious about this, you need to be serious. And smart.

End rant

Jack beat me to it, again.

The Fatheads are wonderful on guitar amp, especially when complementing a dynamic mic. Close mic it.
On a louder source (drums, loud amp), it should perform well in most cases, in my experience. W/o the right preamp, not so much on quieter sources.

For the record, the Beyers are next on my ribbon list, as well.
Probably on my next 5 mics list. Whenever that day comes?

soapfloats wrote: Finally, if you are bound and determined to get a multi-pattern condenser, save up for the 414 (or something comparable). They can be gotten for around $600 used, and I treasure them as drum OHs.

And, the older ones sound a ton better than the new ones. You can tell by looking at the outer ring of the capsule. If it's brass it is one of the better capsules.

We sometimes actually fight over them at school. They really are one of the best all-around, price vs. quality/sound.

Thanks for the chill down guys. I needed that. Cascade FatHead II is fig 8? or cardioid? If fig 8 how would that sound good close mic'd on a cab like you said? I'm not sure myself having never tried it but in theory it doesn't really make sense. In my head that's like one step away from close miking something with an omnidirectional mic...JP22? :D

Also, are you implying the FH II as a replacement for or to use in conjunction with my SM57? I have to admit though that I am still partial to the idea of blending in a distance mic to capture a whole different texture entirely.

You can close mic with any polar pattern. It's just going to sound different.

Omni has no proximity effect, I have used it on cabs and vocals depending on what I am looking for in the big picture.

You can use the FH as a distance mic as well, they are plenty sensitive. People record orchestras from 30 feet out with ribbons.

Like frobs has suggested, you can close mic w/ any pattern, considering certain things.

1. Cardioids usualy exhibit a proximity effect when close mic'd.
2. Fig-8 and Omni do not.
3. If you're not recording in a space that has an abundance of reflections from the rear/sides, then the above patterns will have different characteristics, but will not negate the basic principles of close micing.

For example, the Fathead is Fig-8, with the front positioned very close to the amp. That's the louder and closer (and thus majority) of the sound you're getting. While the back side will also pick up sound (and affect the final input), the less reflective your room is the less this will have an effect. Ditto for omni.

Like I mentioned earlier, it's a different flavor. I for one enjoy the added space (albeit relatively minimal in well-treated room) that a fig-8 or omni produces - especially in conjunction w/ a dynamic cardioid mic.

Edit - I like a distance mic as well. Sometimes I combine my 57/421 close w/ a room mic. Sometimes a dynamic and the Fathead close w/ a room mic. Depends on the sound we want. The distance (room) mic is always the 3rd mic in that equation for me.

I'm a bit confused, is it the FatHead or the FatHead II. I am looking at the II but everyone keeps referring to just FatHead. I assume this is because to you guys it is obvious to which you refer to.

Also, would a ribbon mic devour preamp gain like my Shure mics do? Or do they have higher output? Hopefully not lower...

Yes, ribbon mic's take a lot of clean gain. The Fathead II however is hotter than most ribbon mic's. If you have enough gain for a 57 you should have enough gain for the Fathead. If your gain knob is turned nearly all the way that really isn't a problem. You aren't hurting anything. On some nice preamps this is in fact desirable.

What's the major difference between the FH and FH II? I can't seem to find them on any online retailer either. From looking at their frequency response graphs the FH II seems to have more mid definition, so I think that'd be the one I'm after. Right? The FH seems to be flatter though, so does that make it better or something?

...idk

Can I strongly encourage you guys to go visit this thread:
{old-link-removed}

There is not only a discussion and a comparison of some of these ribbon mics, but also a set of audio clips using various sources.

The FatHead is one of the mics being compared. In some things, it worked well. In others, not so well.

Cheers-
J