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anonymous 19 October 2001

Linux and the Future of Audio? I think we're in for a learning curve or a reality check. Either way let's give a warm welcome to Robotobon.

Welcome aboard Robotobon!

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anonymous Fri, 10/19/2001 - 15:41

Alright Opus2000 great to meet you!

Don't worry about keeping up. But definately break out your ANSI C book and get ready to dig in ;]

I have alot of subjects in mind for this forum, and I'd love to make one of our goals a very sleek and powerful Linux Audio Distribution.

We'll work up to that, as well as coding device drivers and patching the kernel for lower latency.

Hardware modding is something I am getting into now, so I'd like to dig into all the diferent DSP kits and ADC/DAC chips, clocks, you name it for DIY and experimentation!

-robot

anonymous Fri, 10/19/2001 - 16:36

Yes I do know of Demudi but the impression I got from it was that it was still a bit large, since it just apps including with a normal Debian distro.

I am hoping to create a very small distro without 40 window managers and useless apps. Or perhaps code a new basic multitrack application to boot right into, and pretend we all have brand new RADAR's? Of course have the option to exit it's shell and go into X... Lots of planning and discussion! :)

Perhaps a democratic vote on each app that is incuded and what distro we base it off? I'm getting BSD this comming week and I'm gonna run it though the paces.

I am currently researching real time FFT scopes and phase metering accelerated by the video hardware in the pc, like a Geforce 3.

Cheers to the future~

-robot

llornkcor Fri, 10/19/2001 - 17:24

Ya, personally, I don't use Debian. Right now, I prefer SuSE. I also use Mandrake, but not very much as it's got that damned broken gcc. :)
Small and light makes me think about using peanut linux, or the like, but I haven't used that.

I'd suggest maybe one or two wm's, say blackbox, or icewm, and maybe something bigger like window maker.

As far as programs go, there's some very useful already out there. Broadcast is still GPL'd, Ardour isn't very relavant yet, as it's in rapid development, and only available in cvs (and good luck hunting down all the libs it depends on). SLab is very good and useful NOW, it doesn't come with source. But it works.

I kinda updated khdrec to use JUST qt (2.3), but stopped working on it. Cubase is just too good, and besides, no one else was helping me hack on it, so I lost interest. It's at http://sourceforge.net/projects/khdrec2
but that code there is old. I was trying to update the back. I'd like to find some other way or lib to handle the buffers I/O.

I dunno, maybe I'll start hacking on it again.
I'm not a GPL zealot, and don't mind using software that isn't open source.

ljp

anonymous Fri, 10/19/2001 - 17:57

I'm not a GPL zealot either. It's not necessary at all for coding in Linux, but it's a feature. You're not strapped to GCC.

That's something that amuses me about bigger companies not releasing code on Linux, they hide behind the GPL myth. They know better :)

You're right about Cubase being way beyond the apps currently in Linux land right now, but there was a time when it really sucked! Everything takes time to mature.

Nuendo started out on SGI remember?

I think it's totally awesome you've put forth the effort to work on KHDRec2. I don't think you should give up on coding.

That's something I hope we can adress in this forum, coding our own apps under our own distro! It's not so daunting if you have a group of people contributing to make a basic recorder, and we can use CSound or Pd for processing! Set small goals, and work to meet them.

No need to re-invent the wheel. Let's just contort, convolute and transmogrify it!

-robot

anonymous Fri, 10/19/2001 - 18:50

Originally posted by audiokid:
[QB]Linux and the Future of Audio? I think we're in for a learning curve or a reality check.

Actually a learning curve AND a reality check!

Reality check: I've been following the linux audio world closely for about 4 years. Honestly I think it's still "not there yet". Four years ago I could tell it might get there someday. Today, I think it WILL get there soon. But "soon" might be six months or a year or never, depending on where you think "there" is.

Here's my take on the situation...
What we have now:

An OS that can run under heavy load with low latency (approx. 3 ms.) without crashing. And apps can't crash each other.

A standard plugin API, roughly equivalent to VST 1.0. It's called LADSPA and lots of apps are currently using it.

Some cool soft-synths: SpiralSynth Modular, RTSynth, etc.

Some decent editors: Snd is my favorite. But none of them would really impress a working pro engineer.

A big pile of interesting and weird compositional / synthesis systems from the academic world: PD, jMax, csound, SAOL, KeyKit ... (learning curve alert!!)

Support for some pro-level hardware. The choices are currently very limited, but most (all?) of the RME interfaces work well; so do the M-audio Delta series (I guess that'd be more "semipro"?).

Much of the above is currently non-trivial to get working. Did I mention a learning curve? That's why a project like DeMudi could be very helpful - a central source for easy packages of all the essentials.

What we lack:

A truly professional-quality, non-linear mulitrack editing/mixing/recording system... a contender in the ProTools / Logic / Paris / etc. world. Ardour fits the bill but is currently tricky to compile, let alone run. The author estimates 1.0 release by year's end. I'm inclined to believe him - he's been working on it full-time for 2 years, so this is not another over-ambitious part-time hacker's toy. There are other projects in this area but IMHO none of them would be at home in a pro studio.Ecasound is very flexible but very weird to use. SLab has IMHO a very cluttered, busy interface, plus I was told years ago by the author that some parts of the internal bus are (were?) 16-bit integer for efficiency - Bleah!. Broadcast 2000, last time I checked (a year ago), would crash if you breathed on it. I gather it's improved some.

A "Rewire" equivalent for connecting apps. This is also in process; the API is still being debated, but the issues have been hashed over pretty thoroughly and it looks like we'll have something workable soon.

A standard GUI system for our LADSPA plugins, like VST has. Even audio engineers care what things look like, and currently LADSPA plugins just have generic, bland interfaces built by the host app.
Well, that's enough of one man's opinion...

anonymous Fri, 10/19/2001 - 19:47

Alright slinkp!!

You have great points!

I also have been following Linux audio for quite some time. My favorites are Ardour, CSound and Dp.

Re: Reality Check;

Here it is: I spoke with UA regarding their "TBA" status on the http://www.poweredplugins.com page regarding the UAD-1 card. They are extremely enthusiastic about Linux and they stated "we want to be the DAW of the future" in an email to me.

If we can get a major player like UA in the boat, we'll soon be speeding along! :)

You couldn't be more correct in all of your statements. We NEED a profressional DAW under Linux to bridge the gap between the flakey and the essoteric.

Rock on! Let's keep it up!

-Robot

llornkcor Sat, 10/20/2001 - 01:39

Originally posted by Robotobon:

I think it's totally awesome you've put forth the effort to work on KHDRec2. I don't think you should give up on coding.

That's something I hope we can adress in this forum, coding our own apps under our own distro! It's not so daunting if you have a group of people contributing to make a basic recorder, and we can use CSound or Pd for processing! Set small goals, and work to meet them.

No need to re-invent the wheel. Let's just contort, convolute and transmogrify it!

-robot

I haven't given totally up on working on khdrec2. I need to check out a backend. I like poking through the front better. :)
The original khdrec was very simplistic. I added a wav header. I'll start working on it again. and maybe even get the cvs up to date. Besides, qt 3 is out, which shouldn't effect khdrec2 too much.

I would like if I could hook up the Tascam 428 to khdrec2 (It would be PERFECT for it!!), but currently, there's only a partially working n module for roland usb midi devices, and I'd have to write a 428 audio driver.

ljp

Ang1970 Sat, 10/20/2001 - 07:43

Welcome aboard Robotobon! :)

I have to admit, I know less than nothing about Unix and everything that runs on it. Almost impossible for me just to keep up with mac and windows. But hey, I'd love to see some more platforms come out and kick Digidesign in the ass. hehe

Best regards!

Opus2000 Sat, 10/20/2001 - 08:33

anyone else's head starting to spin from all this C++ jargon and encription coding and backend user settings and linux and unix and....aaarrrggghhhhh!!!
Man...I wish when I was a kid playing on the Appl2IIe's I stuck with Basic coding and stuck with really learning programming...I couldve been a multi-millionaire by now!! But, I would never have gotten into music and be doing the things I'm doing now!! Oh well..ya win some and lose some!
Opus

anonymous Sat, 10/20/2001 - 13:03

Wow Opus2000 I learned my Basic on an Apple IIe too. I think I was 6 and my pop decided it was time to learn computer science or something.

Then I dumped Comet in it.

My dad cleaned it out and it still worked of course, being it was an indestructable force of evil or "Apple", so I couldn't run away.

BTW I think we'll just stick with C, since I don't know C++ for beans. :)

Nice to meet you Ang1970. Yes Ass-whoopin's will be had someday. Digidawho? Whinney the poo?

Pssst llornkcor2: http://www.alsa-project.com you can make your own driver with their info. Can you get the Tascam 428 infos? If you can't maybe we could track them down.

-robot

llornkcor Sat, 10/20/2001 - 16:40

heh- what opus fails to understand is that the 'code' on the Tascam web site are only for it's control surface. Which is just midi, really.

The 428 uses (I believe) standard USB-midi and standard USB-audio interface. So, yes, it IS possible to write a USB 428 driver, (rather easier than writing a PCI driver, I gather- no 'info' needed as USB audio and midi is standardized), and someone has recently written a USB-midi module and it will most likely also work with the 428. I haven't yet fully installed it, tho.

and yes, I do know about ALSA, thanks.

heh- Basic. I started with that, long ago. The year the Macintosh came out (gosh, new fangled thing has a what?!?.. a mouse?!?!?). The only way I passed that class is to copy friends programs, change lines numbers (heh- line numbers) and variable names....
Couldn't understand basic, or didn't want too. c/c++ makes more sense to me for some reason.

My interest in c/c++ only came about in the last 4 years. (actually started with writing html of all things), which stems from my interest in technology, which stems from my interest in recording equipment, which stems from my interest in music, which I have ALWAYS been interested in. :D

too much to do, too little time..... ->

ljp

llornkcor Mon, 10/22/2001 - 09:47

If you are serious, it would be nice to see a minimal dist. with audio apps. I downloaded peanut linux to see what it is like. I haven't installed it yet or nothing. Suppose I need to make room somewhere to check it out.

I don't know much of how installations work.

I think I'll switch khdrec2 over to using portaudio, since it now handles ASIO on windows and I've ported khdrec2 to run on windows. :)
and I don't wanna do all I/O code myself.....

Maybe sourceforge has that much space for a minimal audio distribution.

ljp

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