the 480 will probably sound better.... lexiverb and tc plugs suck...

the only time i used lexiverb was on snares in '98 i never used the tc although i had it.... used the pcm instead (wich has 480 algorithms)

but now i'm into convolution reverbs :D ....love altiverb

There should be a very distictive night and day difference. The obsolete and legacy Lexicon 480L is still considerd one of the best world class reverb units ever made. Many even think it is better or at least as good as the newer flagship Lexicon 960.

I think the Lexicon 480L is one of the biggest wastes of money on the market today. :shock: :shock:

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the 480L. It's a great sounding device, and when used correctly, it's well worth the money. The problem is, people aren't mixing that way any more.

Gone are they days where studios use effects as aux sends or buses on their consoles. Instead, people punch up 14 individual instances of some cracked Waves reverb plugin within their cracked version of Cubase - dial up a preset and then complain about how much their computer crashes!

If you're looking for an amazing processor, worthy of its cost simply for its reverbs but has so much more to offer AND you will be patching it into a console or using your DAW in the same manner that 24 track 2" is, than you'll be VERY happy (especially if you're getting a good deal!)

If you strap it across your 2-bus on mix down or mastering, you'll still probably be happy, but out a lot of money.

So, all cynicism aside - yes, the 460L is an excellent processor - if used even remotely correctly.

You might also want to look at:
Lexicon PCM81/91
TC System 6000 (both reverb and mastering versions are AMAZING - and ironically, both together are about the same as a system 460L.)
TC System 4000 (an amazing reverb processor. If all you want is reverbs - this IS the box for you!)
Kurzweil (whatever their 8 channel device is - I don't recall the model # off the top of my head. For $2500, there is hardly a better value out there today!)

As for plug-ins - if you're solely doing reverb, there are some good convolution plugs out there. I use the stock ones from Sequoia and am VERY pleased. The difference between these and high-priced external boxes is neglible if not non-existant.

In any case - good luck with your decision and enjoy! If you get the Lexicon, you will have a legendary piece of gear and the dent in your wallet to match!

J.

Cucco wrote:

Gone are they days where studios use effects as aux sends or buses on their consoles. Instead, people punch up 14 individual instances of some cracked Waves reverb plugin within their cracked version of Cubase - dial up a preset and then complain about how much their computer crashes!

or that it sounds simplu like poo! Sad but True!!

however i agree pretty much with what Cucco said, it's a great box, depends on the deal you get... there are defintely the Pcm 81/91 from lexicon the tc stuff and the eventide stuff to be looked at as well... very good reverbs, even there are in the meantime some really nice plugs out as well, if propperly applied they can sound very decent!
(it's a matter of taste, i like in certain situations the TC Native Bundle plug reverb for example, it's not "good" sounding in terms of being natural, but i love the character it has...)
a.

I used to only love the 480l as a reverb (I really don't care for tc verbs)..
BUT.....Those new convolution things rock..I would prefer the waves ir over a lexicon, simply because it has tons more types of sounds..

i like the trilluim labs recorb but i think it is a little pricey for what you get, ihad a old yamaha rev 500 that i thought delieverd more naturaul reverb. what about eventide?

I actually can't stand any of the wave reverbs with one huge exception being the Ir1. I also had some fun with a Demo of the Wizooverb which also sounds outstanding but is an absolute CPU hog. In fact the biggest problem with most of the convolution verbs is the CPU power requirements.

I recently bought an APA44 primarily so I could run multiple incidents of the IR1 without killing my CPU. The UAD cards have some decent verbs on it, The Real Verb Pro is is good, and the plate reverb is excellant IMO. I agree with Cucco inso far as finding great sounding Lexicon reverb sounds on a PCM 81 or 91 - you can sometimes find the 91's for under $1500.

If you can get around the Power consumption issues I believe that the new convolution verbs are some of the best sounding verb available today.

My reply: ROFLOL!!!!!
You really think that a plugin could sound like the L480?
The Lexicon reverbs use the spin parameter that makes the difference and no plugin is doing it. The only useable plugins for reverb are the convolution ones, but even those can't match a L480 neither a PCM91.
If you want the Lexicon sound in the computer there is (or there was) Lexiverb that sounds really cool.

Convolution is perfect..
I use the real stuff (lexicon, urei and such) daily, and also the convolution stuff (waves, sintefex)..
I'm not sure if they sound exactly the same, but in a digital environment, i prefer to stay digital, and i have no problem whatsoever using the convolution stuff..

If you guys don't mind me jumping in, I'd really be curious what you think (good or bad) about the new Wave Arts Masterverb 5 plug-in that was released yesterday. There is a demo available at the website.

http://wavearts.com/MasterVerb5.html

It's a non-convolution "classic digital" sort of approach, and I'm honestly looking for constructive feedback from music pros with good "reverb ears" (and yes I was involved with the development of the plug-in).

hey guys..
thanks for all the great replies... At the moment im using a pro tools mix 24 system with D verb as my fav primary reverb. I also have TC mega plugin but dont really like it. I have a Sony V77 but rarely uses it for my reverbs. People keep talking bout the 480L having this really out of the world sound. IS it really that great? or its not much diff from what i have right now?

I agree with you Alfie, the best non convolution reverb (apart Lexiverb) is D-Verb hands on, incredibly musical!

alfie wrote: hey guys..
thanks for all the great replies... At the moment im using a pro tools mix 24 system with D verb as my fav primary reverb. I also have TC mega plugin but dont really like it. I have a Sony V77 but rarely uses it for my reverbs. People keep talking bout the 480L having this really out of the world sound. IS it really that great? or its not much diff from what i have right now?

I have a few reverb units and they all have their charicter , for hall algos for me there is no substitude to the 480L , sure it's expensive but there is no software coming even half the way to the 480L , convolutions are ok , but i did a shootout a few days ago with the 480L impulses of the IR-1 and it's not even close to the big creamy sound of the 480L that really envelopes the source you are running through, especialy for mid range instruments and vocals , no it doesn't sound natural , it's not the lexi thing at all , if you are looking for a natural reverb you can check out the Quantec but there is nothing that seats in the mix and giving that depth and fat sounding like the 480L , the Kurzweil Rumour is nice for plates and short stuff and so is the Roland R-880 , personaly i never liked any TC algo I've ever heard but i never used their system 6000 , nothing i've heard so far don't have the rich texture of the 480L , if you can get one get it ! hope this helps :wink:

I wonder if cucco still feels this way today?

Giovanni_Speranza, post: 176579 wrote: My reply: ROFLOL!!!!!
You really think that a plugin could sound like the L480?
The Lexicon reverbs use the spin parameter that makes the difference and no plugin is doing it. The only useable plugins for reverb are the convolution ones, but even those can't match a L480 neither a PCM91.
If you want the Lexicon sound in the computer there is (or there was) Lexiverb that sounds really cool.

The UAD 224 sounds pretty damn good. And yes, I have used the hardware. The thing about UAD plugins is that they are not convolution. They are modeled after the hardware. That is, they take time measuring component to component. It's a circuit board model in virtual form. That's why they require a DSP card. That's also why you can only run a very limited number of instances per card.

I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just voicing my opinion.

And here I thought he was going to demonstrate the difference between the software 224 vs. his hardware unit that was also sitting on his desktop. Nevertheless, Lexicon reverbs while they were cool also had an intrinsic Lexicon factor to it. That factor which we have all heard was something my friend Paul Wolff (former owner/president of API) always used to bitch at me about. And that was all of their reverbs include an intrinsic circulatory echo effect. So even their plate effect, which was supposed to mimic the EMT plate included these circulatory echoes in the decay. He is absolutely right. It makes for a cool effect but certainly doesn't sound like an EMT plate. Of course, that's why this is still considered an effects device because it's not a plate. That plate emulation today by other software folks have improved immensely but I still miss my plate. Unfortunately, we all need to be a little more practical these days especially with smaller facilities. I still keep my eyes open for the EMT 240 gold foil reverb device. It's portable! And it sounds like a plate should sound. The EMT 250 was a good digital rendition of their plates. But who wants to spend $15,000 anymore even for a used digital effects device? If I could get an original Lexicon 224 for under $1000, I'd consider one. I haven't seen any working at that price yet, however. But there is no doubt that most digital processing can create incredible soundscape effects. And who doesn't drool over that?

I've got to get to Red Hot & Blue before it's too late tonight. Yum.
Mx. Remy Ann David

audiokid, post: 380882 wrote: I wonder if cucco still feels this way today?

Well, when this thread was started YouTube was only nine months old. While there are a lot more people who are new to recording playing with expensive equipment, there is a lot more information out there that is free and easily accessible. I think we are seeing fewer questions about these basic "mistakes." (Not sure that using too many reverb instances counts as a mistake.) On the software side, we have a lot more great plugins available today than we did 6 years ago. I'm with huseph that the UAD 224 plugin is great (as is its EMT 140 plate reverb.) The hardware world moves more slowly. The 480 is what, 25 years old?

RemyRAD, post: 380901 wrote: ...The EMT 250 was a good digital rendition of their plates...

That's interesting. Again, I've never tried the real thing. But the UAD emulation of the EMT 250 doesn't sound anything like any plate reverb I've ever heard. A lot of people love that plugin, but I've never warmed up to it.

...Lexicon reverbs while they were cool also had an intrinsic Lexicon factor to it...

That's not a bug, its a feature. It's a cool sound. It doesn't sound like Carnegie Hall but a plate doesn't either (real plate, digital plate, dinner plate.)

And here I thought he was going to demonstrate the difference between the software 224 vs. his hardware unit that was also sitting on his desktop.

I think there are some videos out there where they do that. (There are certainly a lot of discussions: I was raised with a 224 in my crib! THE HARDWARE UNIT AND THE PLUGIN SOUND NOTHING ALIKE!!!! NO, I replaced one of my kidneys with a REAL 224. The UAD plugin NAILS IT!!###!!!) They don't interest me much. The questions for me are (1) can I afford it? (2) will it make my recordings sound better? The UAD Lex 224 and EMT 140 are the best tools I've found in my price range to let me get close to the vibe on records (yes, records!) that used those original units.

audiokid, post: 380882 wrote: I wonder if cucco still feels this way today?

Ha...
This is an old post!

Yeah, I do still kinda feel this way. Of course, bear in mind, I own a Bricasti M7 - one of the most expensive reverb-only boxes available on the open market today. But, I use the thing on just about every classical mix I do - even those that are "wet" to begin with.

I did a recording for Howard Shore (the guy that did the Soundtrack to Lord of the Rings) in the National Cathedral in Washington DC. It was a professional chorus with the amazing cathedral organ and there's a 6 second reverb time! There's also a pronounced second pulse from the back wall of the church. I used the Bricasti to add some internal density between the early reflections and the pronounced late reflection. The result was stunningly rich and dense. (Info about the upcoming recording is here: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.judithcl…"]Judith Clurman/Recordings/Essential Voices USA[/]="http://www.judithcl…"]Judith Clurman/Recordings/Essential Voices USA[/] though it has yet to be released. Apparently, it's going to be on Harmoni Mundi, but no word yet).

For the vast majority of folks out there though, plug-in reverbs will work beautifully. In fact, I occasionally wonder "Hmmm...I wonder how much I could get for my Bricasti?" But then I listen to it again and realize that I have no intentions of ever selling it. ;-)

Cheers-
J

This year was the year of "solving" modulation and reverb for my studio. What a massive undertaking. With the huge live room I acquired 5 years ago I thought most of my reverb needs could be solved by room mics. I did not work out as I had hoped. I managed to get most of what I needed accomplished with tape delays, spring reverbs, room mics, samples of reverbs I made and other desperate techniques I'm almost ashamed to admit I did:-)

A bricasti is a no brainer but does not make sense for my business model. I ended up getting a lexicon PCM 70, PCM 90 and an eventide modfactor. When I did a shootout of the modfactor against the H3000 D/SE(I think that is the model) the H3000 had more depth and was clearly better but when I mixed with it in a typical mix where I might use it I was not hearing a difference and was even less apparent as I eq'd the channel on my console. I agree the Lexicon stuff doesn't sound like natural reverb or like real plate's but they do sound cool as Remy stated. The 90 is a lot more realistic then the 70 and these are meeting my needs and then some. Any software I've heard doesn't come close to sitting in a mix the way these do. Lots of the software sounds cool by itself but with hardware reverb I feel like the reverb is an instrument by itself, with substance, that I am mixing like overheads or bass guitar within a mix. With software I feel like I am smearing something that used to sound good on top of other things that used to sound good filling in the space of a wide mix without contributing to the depth. I am probably doing something wrong with plugs because I have a buddy that does phenomenal mixes with UAD verbs mostly.

Whatever I'll take my hardware that mixes in quickly and easily for me and sulk some more about how I don't understand plugs.

Hopefully I didn't derail things too far.