Simon,

For new mics Neumann KM-184's sound nice, especially for the price. I really like small diaphram condensers on overheads, particularly when using more than 3-4 mics on the kit (which I often do)...they are very focused with not a lot of off-axis coloration. Vintage KM84's can be had for not a lot of money (and sound better than the KM-184's IMO), but be careful of Ebay you never know what you are getting and its a crap shoot (no pun intended). Buy from a reputable vintage dealer who will back up the product if it doesn't work flawlessly. Ribbons can be nice on OH's also, but they aren't as general purpose for that application at least for my tastes.

Best Regards,

Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com
813.662.5028

What kinda mic's are you using for the rest of your drum kit. Are they the same mics everytime you record drums?
These other mics would effect the mics I would choose for OH's.

Check out the Oktava MC012 multi-capsule condenser. I have a stereo matched pair from The Sound Room (http://www.oktava.com) -- they came with 3 capsules (cardioid, omni, hypercardioid) in a sweet cedar box! Sound great as overheads in omni mode plus they were VERY affordable.

The guy who runs The Sound Room (Taylor Johnson) double checks & benches the mics when he gets them from Russia, so you're guaranteed a good sounding mic.

If Oktava's not for you, he carries several other nice brands too...

Hope that helps.

Originally posted by e-cue:
What kinda mic's are you using for the rest of your drum kit. Are they the same mics everytime you record drums?
These other mics would effect the mics I would choose for OH's.

e-cue
If i'm working at home I would normaly use the following setup:
Kik: D112/u87/u47
Snr: sm 57/414/pr37a
Hat: pr 37a
Toms: md421's / pr25's
O/H: 451's with ck1 capsules
Room: 414's / u87's

These are the ones i usualy reach for a start... I don't have a massive collection so I do from time to time hire in other mics if the project warrants it.

Thanks
Simon

I agree that the KM184's are hard to beat for utility and price. For me, they rate among the SM57's and MD421's as the basic building blocks of a mic collection. Like a 57 or a 421, you can always find new uses for the KM184; and no matter what you throw at them, they usually sound very good, often great. On the other hand, (back to drum OH) I have been trying something new in that application - one or two ribbon mics. A Coles 4038 or a pair of Royers can sound very nice - obviously not as bright (or anywhere near as LOUD) as the 184's, but very nice all the same. What I really liked about this method the last time that I tried it recently was that I was able to get a good overall drum balance from the overheads, not just a wash of cymbals. The Royers alone sounded like a complete drum kit, before I even brought up the kick mic. Probably an unrepeatable fluke, but it sure was impressive.

I don't think it was "an unrepeatable fluke." In doing some very simple drum recording lately, I've gotten most of the tone from an overhead ribbon mic. As Steve says, it doesn't sound like a cymbal wash, but like a nice balanced picture of the drum kit. Mix in a little from the kick and snare mics, and maybe just a taste from the room, and you're there.

SC

Thanks everyone for the replies.... some serious food for thought here. I had considered a pair of the Neumans and have a matched pair coming for trial in a week or so. I am also very interested in the ribbon mics..... I know a number of people who are really getting to like them. Do you still get a real good cymbal separation from them? and which is the better in oyur opinions the royer or the coles? How do you find the imaging on the stereo ribbons? A pal of mine reckons the stereo Royer is fab for all sorts of applications including micing guitar cabs... iis this true? And I heard that the ribbon mics don't handle spl that well certainly not the older ribbons, can I ask you whether that still holds true, and finaly what kinds of mic pres are you using with them?

Thanks
Simon :)

What style of music do you typically record? That would make a big diference on what I would recommend.

Mixerman

Originally posted by Mixerman:
What style of music do you typically record? That would make a big diference on what I would recommend.

Mixerman

Mixerman
Thanks for your reply, generally speaking the majority of my work these days is rock/indie rock, that is mostly pop based Album material for smaller record labels, based in Europe and Japan.

Thanks
Simon

Originally posted by nrgmusic:

Thanks
Simon

If that's the case, then you might want to check out a couple of AKG414's as overheads. For Alternative I prefer 87's, they have a beefy quality that I enjoy on rock drums. For straight pop, I like the 414's.

If you can expand your mic collection, it's not bad to have a couple mic options for overheads.

Mixerman

Simon, I too used a pair of c451s for years but recently came across a pair of silver 414EBs with the old style capsules and was blown away. The 414s seem to still get the detail that you remember with the 451s, but they also get some of the meat and balls of the kit. They're also quite versatile with multiple patterns. I definitely agree with mixerman's recommendation on the 414s, and one further. If you can find old silver ones don't pass them up. Very nice, I love mine.

Bill Watson
GigaBoy A/V

Originally posted by GigaBoy:
The 414s seem to still get the detail that you remember with the 451s, but they also get some of the meat and balls of the kit. They're also quite versatile with multiple patterns. I definitely agree with mixerman's recommendation on the 414s, and one further. If you can find old silver ones don't pass them up.

Or, if you don't want to get into the obvious possible pitfalls of "vintage" used gear (as Fletcher says..."fuggedaboudit") and you still want a large diaphram silky smooth world class multipattern mic (with a warranty) that is in the same school of high frequency accentuation, you could try a pair of BLUE Kiwi's (less than $4k for a pair). See them here:

here

But hey, with some things you get what you pay for, and with other you pay for what you get. YMMV

Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com

For years now I have been digging 'fixed axis' stero mic's (2 capsules in one mic case)

Neumann SM2 - vintage valve
Neumann SM69 - vintage valve
AKG C24 - vintage valve
Royer SF-12

A C24 fan, I found the Royer stereo mic even better. I use it in big rooms when I track 'out' and mounted from a ceiling mount in my tiny wood floor, concrete block, sheetrock ceiling drum booth - at my own place The Library.. it sounds excelent most places I find... IMHO it is great for getting cymbals to sound nice on a DAW or digital.

My usual overhead chain

Royer SF-12
Earlybird (giant valve) mic pre
Tube Tech PE1C's - boost at either 8/10/12 k
SSL compressor
Cranesong Hedd (for conversion and the tape/valve simulation)
AES into Pro Tools

:)

Jules

Hey Jules
Thanks for the info... Can I get a Royer here or would you recommend getting one from Fletcher at Mercenary?

Simon

While on this subject, I would like to know your recommendations for micing jazz drums to get the "tick" of the stick hitting the ride cymbal.

Low end solutions welcome. I have available to me:

SM-57s
Marshall 603s
RE-20
Marshall MXL-67
AT-822 stereo
Sennheiser E602
Shure 829

I am considering getting a pair of matched omnis for completeness, so if these would be a consideration, let me no.

Originally posted by Dr. Willie:
While on this subject, I would like to know your recommendations for micing jazz drums to get the "tick" of the stick hitting the ride cymbal. -chopchop- I am considering getting a pair of matched omnis for completeness, so if these would be a consideration, let me no.
"Pencil" type mic's (small condensers such as Earthworks TC30/40k, shure sm81, km81, etc.) have served me well for this type of application.

I have limited experience with Oktavas, but they sound like they would work well on overheads and are worth serious consideration. They're very reasonably priced, and with all the capsules you're not limited to omni pattern... more bang for the buck. Oops, I stole Harvey's line! Sorry, hehe.

If the drummer does a lot of intricate ride work, I'll sneak an Audix TR-40 omni in below the crashes, and actually aim it from just behind the bell toward the front of the cymbal, positioned about 4" above the ride.

If you're looking for a really traditional jazz drum sound, I'd try a pair of Beyer M-260's. Sometimes you don't even need the kick mike. Very nice, and not too expensive.

SC

Simon,

That sucks that your mic crapped out the other day - I really dig the 451 sound on overheads as well. It was rather nostalgic for me to read your post cause I haven't used those mics on OH in a while so I'm trying to dig up a pair for a session I'm doing next weekend that they will be perfect for. Thanks for the inspiration.

As for recommendations on OH mics, I would also have to agree with Nathan on the Neumann KM-184's. You can also always play it safe with a pair of 414's or SM81's. I recently had a good experience with a pair of the Earthworks SR71 mics - another engineer brought them in with him and they sounded great. These suggestions are all of coarse standard and safe choices based upon the kind of music you record.

Good luck finding some replacements. Let us know what you come up with.

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

Originally posted by Starfields76:
Simon,

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

Hi Kevin
Thanks for your reply, as a matter of interest did you try the 'Earthworks' on anything else whilst they were with you 'cos I've been hearing some very good things about them recently.
Best

Simon

:)

Attached files

Simon,

We only used them on OH that week but he's a regular here so I'm sure I'll get to play with those Earthworks mics again soon. I've been told that they sound pretty good on acoustic guitar as well. I'll have to taste and see for myself though. How's the search going?

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

Attached files

Originally posted by Starfields76:
Simon,

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

Kevin,
I'm kinda in 2 minds at the moment, I will definately replace my 451's with a matched pair of AKG's current equivalent, but I'm trying out the Royer SF-12 next week and given the views if the likes of Jules I'm looking forward to the trial. I'm also tempted to do a shootout between the Royer, the KM184's, the Earthworks and my existing 414's and U87's, as Fletcher would say see how they actually sound in the room.

Best
Simon

:)

Simon,

Let us know the results of your shootout if you choose to have one. My money is on the Royer SF-12 - stereo mics have this wide thing about them that I really dig. I used one back in March when I was producing a band at a friends studio. He had a really big live space and I swear, that mic just made it sound even bigger! They sound wild on guitar cabs, too. It's the kind of mic that I don't think ever sounds bad.

Thanks for the update!

Kevin Bruchert
Producer / Engineer
Starfields Productions

I've been using Neumann KM 84's, Shure SM-81's and Shure KMS-32's. Recently I have also used a pair of Calrec 1050C's with great results. The Calrec is also teriffic on hihat!

But, as always, what works for me in my studio might be the wrong medicine elsewhere...

/Mats

Originally posted by mats.olsson@rockfile.se:
I've been using Neumann KM 84's, Shure SM-81's and Shure KMS-32's. Recently I have also used a pair of Calrec 1050C's with great results. The Calrec is also teriffic on hihat!

/Mats

Mats,
Thanks for the reply, I don't know much about the Calrecs tell me some more....

best
Simon

:)

The Calrecs... well they still are manufactured by the same people but today under the name of "Hebden Sound". They are quite common on the used market and can often be picked up for a very reasonable amount. But they aren't very expensive new either, at least not in the UK where you are residing!

I strongly recommend that you borrow a pair for evaluation. But you can't borrow mine - we use them almost every single day. The 1050C's sound is quite colored - in a very desirable way, this is certainly not a totally transparent mike like DPA or Earthworks. IMHO, a pair of 1050C's is a great addition to any mic locker.

/Mats

FWIW, the two setups I've been finding myself using most the last few months is an SF-12 4 to 6 ft. over the kit, and a Soundelux U-195 w/the "Fat switch" and the "rolloff" switch engaged in front of the kit. Once I get the tone I'm looking for in the SF-12, I'll go to one speaker mono, then move the U-195 around until it gets really clear and large sounding with the SF-12.

The other is a pair of Earthworks QTC-1's. One in front of the kit, the other over the drummers right shoulder...again, one speaker mono, move until you achieve maximum clarity (I usually find the best spot for the mic in front of the kit, then move the one over the drummers shoulder).

As always...YMMV.

Hey Fletcher,

Whaddya do then???
(signal chain, compression, panning)

Just curious. I've been trying less mics out on my drums as you suggested. Much different than my mic the crap out of the kit amatuer way of doing things.

Originally posted by MMazurek:
Hey Fletcher,

Just curious. I've been trying less mics out on my drums as you suggested. Much different than my mic the crap out of the kit amatuer way of doing things.

Interesting point that... Whilst I also like the 3 mic thing a la Fletcher, there are definately times when I have found I need a bunch of close micing don't you find this also? Or is it just me being too scared to commit to just the three mics alone?

Fletcher,
I am very intrigued by the stereo Royer, Jules also raves about it.... I do mostly rock stuff/ indie rock have you any suggestions as to mic pres that I should check out with it, I know you don't like to reccommend stuff cos each individual scenario is different, but I'm sure youv'e used pres for overheads with the Royer that worked better than others, so I'd be grateful if you'd point me in the direction of some of the better ones in your opinion.

Thanks

Simon

Hey NRG,
Don't discount the AT 4050 and 4047. They don't have the "geek/wow" factor of some other models, but they do sound great.

My $.02

I'm happy this thing of the ambient-minimalist miking has cropped up!
IMHO a very simple stereo setup (3 mikes) can yield the depth and dimensionality that no amount of 'verb and processing can achieve.
Now, if only drummers over here would understand this very simple concept...
KM184s do sound bright...but then, it's better to have some reserve, you can always tone it down, than to reach for the 12k and pull up only hiss.

Paul

Originally posted by JingleJungle:
you can always tone it down, than to reach for the 12k and pull up only hiss.

I haven't noticed than phenomenon with KM-184's, even with cheap board eq.

Regards
Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com

Originally posted by MMazurek:
Hey Fletcher,

Whaddya do then???
(signal chain, compression, panning)

I dunno...what ever the song tells me to do. Sometimes I'll run like 2 to 10 channels of compression and add them in at different times or all together, and sometimes pretty much nothing. I really try to leave my 'preconceptions' at the door.

Just curious. I've been trying less mics out on my drums as you suggested. Much different than my mic the crap out of the kit amatuer way of doing things.

It makes the quality of the drummer, the drums and the the room that much more important...but if you have all the facilities to pull it off...it's a snap.

Best of luck with your efforts...don't be afraid to try stuff...it's only music, not brain surgery. If you don't like the way something is going you can always tear it down and start again. The key is, has been, and will always be performance. Without a great performance the audio stuff is kinda like trying to piss up a rope.

Fletcher,

How do you piss up a rope? I’ve been trying, but just can’t seem to get it… much different than my usual “go with gravity” amateur way of peeing ;-)

I am kind of new here but here's my input and hope it help in anyway.

I have great result with using Shure KSm32 for overhead. I am recording the drum with absorbing panels turn to the reflected sides, wood floor with drum on a carpet. This with a U87 about 5'front of the drumset.

I tried a pair of 184's before but it did not sound as good as the ksm32. Now don't jump on my bone on this one. Everything has to do with the room, its size, and damm it...especially the drummer

Shit you guys got me going...

I need some variation posiblities from my SF12

You got me interested in

KM84
KSM 32
Hebden sound
Earthworks...

Personaly I find the exagerated 'ultra wide' sound on the Earthworks Omni freaks me a little...But I admire a chums recordings with it so...(what am I talking about then...?)

I have a TINY fucking drum room, I suppose

KM84 crossed?
KSM 32 crossed?
Hebden sound crossed?
Earthworks... on Tee Bar?
PZM on side walls? !!!!

Jules

Hey everyone - just thought I'd throw a few more overhead questions out there, as after reading this thread my mind is kicking into overdrive.

Jules mentioned the possibility of PZM's for drum sounds. I bought a heap of em when I first started my studio, and even did the balancing mod on a couple so they would terminate to a balanced xlr. I never liked em as an overhead, but I never put them into anything better than a Mackie VLZ for the preamp. My question is anybody using them out there? For a primary overhead mike or as an additional room mike? I have been told they can bee cool as a room mike with a ton of compression on them, ala distressor. Hey Jules - just how small is your drum room? Like, iso booth small or bedroom small? What kind of surfaces does the room have? I'd love to know, and love to hear an MP3 of a mix you've done of drums in that room - I am always keen to hear good sounding drums done in small studios - that really is where the skill is.

I currently use Neumann KM85's for overheads. I originally wanted 84's but I always tend to roll off the very low end from overheads anyway, is this wrong? The 85's have a bass rolloff that equate to roughly what I was EQing out anyway, and the rolloff is probably more phase coherent. Any comments on this setup? The only problems I encounter is sometimes I want a wider stereo image, which I can often acheive with different stereo miking configs.

If there is one thing I have learnt this year is the preamps make as much a difference in tone than mike selection does. What is everyone using as pre's on their overheads??? I am using an API3124+ unit, I love it..

There is lots of praise for the SF12 Royer stereo ribbon as an overhead here, and I would love to hear it - anybody got a link to a mix done with an SF12 as overhead? I am SOOO :c:

Last question for the forum, what is your standard stereo miking technique for overheads, with say a pair of small diaphram condensers? Lets say the room is medium size, but not the best sounding room you've ever heard. Rock style playing, with most other components of the kit and band close miked? Please include preamp used!

Adam B

Hi,
I like the ribbon idea. I had a gig with a punk band & I used a D112 & just 2 x Reslo ribbons, Neve Pre's & 1176's. The snare sound was in your face. It cut the gig no problem.
Regards Michael :D
p.s. A cheap mic to check out is an Audio technica AT 825, It is an X/Y fixed. It needs a little eq in the high end, the mids are good for toms.