On the latest RATM and RHCP, you're probably sitting at about 1-2 db peak over RMS.

Ronnie,

There is an ongoing debate among
mastering engineers about the "level wars".
Some guys crush the dynamics to get the CD
to sound a little louder on the radio
(which is sad as radio already heavily
limits stuff anyway). Let your ears decide
what sounds good. Obviously RATM is going
for an unrelenting volume. I like their
music a lot, but it cold be waaaay more
"dynamic". I just mastered a bluegrass
album by Tony Williamson who has a group
in North Carolina. I didn't even fire up
the Vari Mu (compressor) for the ENTIRE
album. Nor did I use any L2. The album
still sounds loud, but all of the intricate
dynamic are still there. Again, let your
ears decide...not a VU meter or "the other
guys's" CD.

cheers,

paul story

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
On the latest RATM and RHCP, you're probably sitting at about 1-2 db peak over RMS.

jesus MF'in christ that's pathetic...i mean, i knew releases like these were bad, but DAMN... in tv land we're allowed +10-14 depending...and of course nobody checks commercials. gawd forbid broadcast audio becomes a haven for audiophile content...especially since digital is on its way there too. i can already envision the poorly setup L2's, Finalizers et.al. strapped across your favorite stations...

can anyone here explain why this relative loudness related trend didn't happen ( or maybe it did? at least not to the same extremes??) in the days of vinyl?

We can control everything so much better now. In the vinyl days remember the woofers moving before the music even started. So much noise in everything. 50 db of signal 50 db of noise.

The crosstalk was incredible. I put my old vinyl on now and it sounds like AM. eek, but it was dynamic lol!

Half the problem is that the people mixing and mastering in days gone by actually knew what they were doing. Now any MC with an ego can call himself a producer. The results are terrible but are on average louder and so these cuts get noticed.

Maybe the other half of it comes down to taste: I hate songs lacking dynamic range and I won't listen to them. Sometimes I feel I'm a minority of one. Then I come over here to cheer myself up :)

....

Brad,

One can actually hit the digital wall too. I had a client recently who was hell bent on having the loudest CD ever. After trying to explain all of the above he still wanted a super loud CD. So, I made him CDs with increasing levels (never a digi clip tho) until we got to the point where the RMS level was so high that although it wasn't clipping the converters, it was distorting all of the analog output electronics. He got his loud CD and a reccomendation of another mastering engineer who doesn't mind doing that kind of stuff.

With dig, everything's fine until you hit the wall. But when you hit that wall, it
immediately sounds like crap.

Hi Paul - notice what I said:

quote:

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
With dig, everything's fine until you hit the wall. But when you hit that wall, it
immediately sounds like crap.

Yes, of course. What I thought you were referring to was digi distortion, not just a RMS level hot enough to melt your analog output .
I'll have a bit of caffeine before I post in the am. We are building a new room onto the studio and I was painting late last night.

I used to deal with those clients, too, but now tell them simply, 'I'm not your guy'. I have enough work that
I don't worry about sending the level-dogs away (thank the maker). Can't argue with the majors very
much, but I still let them know what's up...

I'm with you there. I took the gig for somebody I had recorded and mixed before. We had a good working friendship. It's too bad, it was a
great song. I almost never have anyone push me about levels.

Paul, do you have a website up we can peruse? It's great to have you here, BTW.

My webmaster has everything ready to go and I still can't get any pics that I like...grrrr..... The URL is/will be BarkingSpiderAudio.com
I wanted to have pics of the new room before I put it up. I checked out your site. Nice. Our place ain't no where near as big as that.
We have 2 studios in 2000 sq ft. The new one will be a small MIDI/non live drum room. The other is my mixing mastering room. I'm an analog
kinda guy when it comes to mastering. I use a Manley Massive Passive, Manley Vari Mu, Massenberg EQ, Apogee converters, Waves L2
and a G4 with a few digi-goodies. We have Dunlavys, DynAudio and Mackie (I really like these) for monitors. A trusty pair of Senn 580s
for listening for really quiet stuff and I'm good to go. I hope to have something up soon. I certainly underestimated a web site's importance!!

All,

Sorry my posts have messed up formatting. I use Composer to write stuff. It looks right in that. When I see it on the page it looks wrong. Angelo explained to me about the word wrap thing, but when I quote I can't get it right. Sorry....

hey brad, i gotta question.

how loud can it possibly get? i mean there is definately a point where you cant go any louder when no one can be the loudest... and what is going to happen then? are people going to wake up and realize that louder can simply mean turning up the volume knob?

so do you think we can go backwards? i notice this REAL BAD when listening to my collection in the car [cd changer] and the relative volumes between say Foo Fighters and Bob Marley are absurd. i can say i like the way both sound but i obviously have to reach for the volume knob between the two. BUT the bob marley sounds nicer when i CRANK it than cranking the Foo Fighters which really breaks up the speakers a lot quicker at louder volumes.

also who really has the balls to NOT make theirs louder? i would like to think i do but i dont, ill admit it. especially with the style of music i do [stoner rock] its gotta be loud. i dont necessarily think it needs to be pegged but i dont want it too low either.

you really like the sound of the new BC album? i was so disappointed with that CD... [i LIKE the BC's but not this album] but i think its the lack of "inspiration" over the sound, but the sound isnt as nice as 'southern harmony and musical companion' nor are the songs. but thats another thread all together.

It will take a band with balls, but the Crowes have released a record with about 6 db more dynamic range than their last record. It will take something like that to hit big for the labels to take their heads out of their collective butts and realize that louder doesn't mean jack...

--Brad Blackwood

that IS true, i do love the way the kick and snare sound. and i do kinda like the RAUNCH of the album. i actually like the don was mixed songs better than the CLA. i see what you are saying. im still listening to it to see if it starts to grow on me. some of my favorite albums now were ones i thought were horrible at first. and i AM a BC fan, gotta hear the rock from somewhere.

"It will take a band with balls, but the Crowes have released a record with about 6 db more dynamic range than their last record. It will take something like that to hit big for the labels to take their heads out of their collective butts and realize that louder doesn't mean jack..."
--Brad Blackwood

I am actually scared, I saw them at Sunfest this year, and thats the way they are. I like them a lot.
I can't believe that consumer equipment has that much headroom, when I play CD's on my system, most are at a reasonable level, track correctly with the alignment, play a Crowes CD, and the meters are pegged.
It will wake you up, for sure. Pretty soon mfgrs. won't need driver stages in their circuitry.
--Rick

well,
I got a two days break, and I've found 14 reply to my post.....nice ;-)

Thanx to all who replied.
I'm very scared about this loudness war thing, 'cause I've been asked to push the loudness VERY up on same late CD, and I was curios to know what is the current loudness to peak rate.

Well, I think that an album CANNOT have a 2 to 3 dB loudness level to peak ratio.
It's absurd.
Most of teh stuff I mix, doesn't have less than 16 dB.

Unfortunately they sound so softer in comparison to RHCP or RATM, but ubfortately, demo bands was those cds as reference.

I'm not gonna change my mind, I'll still try to mix as much dynamic as I can.

But I'm interested on some other albums, if you'd like to speak:

Jeff Buckley, Grace
Rex, C

Those are dynamic albums, the REX in fact is VERY dynamic, and they sound superb, musically speaking, they have breath, pauses, raw, and calm.

Anyone??

ciao
ronnie

....

when that rms level gets too0 high its just absurd. but lets not forget a compressor on every channel IN the mix... everything is always at the same volume all the time. nuts! thats the new weezer, my gawd. i cant listen to it... it makes the songs boring.

I can't remember where, but I have read the results of clinical tests which demonstrated that dynamics were one of the key elements that made some music more enjoyable than other, less dynamic music. I think they had taken the same music and compressed it and surveyed people somehow. I'm not telling anyone here anything new, I know. This stuff really bugs the hell out of me though. We're letting some hairbrained scheme, motivated by greed alone, suck the life out of what is a basic human form of expression. Well anyway when I'm home I try to play some good music for my kids and hope that some nitwit hasn't remastered a masterpiece into a lifeless piece of garbage. Excuse the rant please, music is very important to me. What's left of it.

yeah, modern music doesnt breathe much anymore. its either ON or OFF. heres to holding your breathe!

lets not forget about even more compression and distortion once its on the market... one too many i have seen in some parking lot BLARING the music in their car like they are enjoying the speakers breaking up thinking it sounds good. im all for loud music in the car providing you have the power to run it that way... best buys doesnt sell that kind of power.

of course the worlds noise floor is getting pretty damn loud... got to get above it somehow :roll:

thats the new weezer, my gawd. i cant listen to it... it makes the songs boring

I think the new Weezer is incredible. Music and Production both. But I suppose I will get flamed for disagreeing with the Mob :( Oh just for name slinging fun that was produced by Rick Ocasic and mixed by Lord-Alge

Best Regards,
Nathan Eldred
Atlas Pro Audio, Inc.
http://www.atlasproaudio.com

Originally posted by alphajerk:
. everything is always at the same volume all the time. nuts! thats the new weezer, my gawd. i cant listen to it... it makes the songs boring.[/QB]

I think you're on to something here Alphajerk. I like some things to be soft, some loud and others in the middle. I like the Weezer record, Rivers Cuomo writes great songs, and the band plays great. It's not grabbing me like their Pinkerton did. The green album all kinda sounds the same, except "Hash Pipe."

My $.02

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:
[QB]

I think we hit the level wall about the time RHCP was released. It's sounded crappy for a while, but that was probably the limit. So much stuff is clipped *way* past distortion right now, but it's going to take one of two things for this to change.

1) Big hit with dynamic range.

2) NAB sets a limit on RMS level (could be happening behind the scenes as we speak).

But on most of the major label rock stuff I've done recently, level wasn't really as much an issue to the band as it wasa year ago. The label's are driving it right now. The producer/band usually tells me to 'do what you did on so-and-so's record' or 'match it to this CD'.
QB]

I recently had a friend come to me to master his album. While doing the peak limiting at his place and using Wavelab I noticed that the average RMS value was around -13 but at some points the average RMS was around -5 for a half of a chorus or something that that.

So, if you were going to reccomend an NAB limit to RMS value what would it be? We are talking about a whole song right and not just a piece of it right? What are the chances that an RMS "limit" could be enforced?

....

Originally posted by atlasproaudio:

I think the new Weezer is incredible. Music and Production both. But I suppose I will get flamed for disagreeing with the Mob :( Oh just for name slinging fun that was produced by Rick Ocasic and mixed by Lord-Alge
]

Well, there it is, then. TLA mixed one tune off of my brother in law's last album, and came really close to good- the tones and sounds were great (as were the raw tracks), but it's just ridiculous how much flatter than the rest of the album (mostly mixed by Don Smith) it sounds, even though it's a little louder. Just compressed into submission. Someone make that guy mix without compression just once- bet it'll sound like shit.

I used to get this from my clients after printing them a test cd-r- "Your mix sounds good, but when I put it in my car, the other cd's I play are so much louder". Now, I run everything through MasterX 5... They stopped complaining. To my clients, louder is better. So they think a shitty-over compressed TLA mix sounds good. I always print a "Safety Down" (with no master X) for the mastering plant. I also don't do a fade on this pass, because fade outs sound really eff'ed up when you 'finalize' your mixes. I always fear hearing the other guy's song on the radio louder than mine.

Originally posted by e-cue:
I used to get this from my clients after printing them a test cd-r- "Your mix sounds good, but when I put it in my car, the other cd's I play are so much louder". Now, I run everything through MasterX 5... They stopped complaining. To my clients, louder is better. So they think a shitty-over compressed TLA mix sounds good. I always print a "Safety Down" (with no master X) for the mastering plant. I also don't do a fade on this pass, because fade outs sound really eff'ed up when you 'finalize' your mixes. I always fear hearing the other guy's song on the radio louder than mine.

See, that's part of the point, though- it's just not necessary to worry about 'enough compression for radio.' A couple of months ago, a local band had a song we did here played on local radio, and I happened to be in the car when it came on. It was off of a DAT, was not bus compressed, and it peaked at -3 or -4. The new Chili Peppers came on right after it. Funny thing was, the radio processing more than took care of it- the RHCP was so loud (I guess) that it got pushed down _below_ the level of my unmastered mix. I got a laugh out of that one!

I know it is a little late in the thread but FWIW, in the early 80's the average was to be at -17. Then some analog folks being new to digital decided...Hey...we can actually push the meters on the DAT to zero and with analog in using the DAT's A/D we can keep pushing without digital overload...Using the DAT as a compressor.(Absurd thinking) This is when the standard changed. My early CD's run close to -22 RMS and peak at -7.

My mastering ..even on Heavy Rock usually runs an average of -18 with peaks of 0.3dB.

Sustained passages will run the -9 to -7 but I do what sounds best. Nary a complaint. I do spend enough time with my clients explaining translation. They just have to trust that I know what the deal is.

If a standard were to be set..I would be for -10(RMS)...that will give 10dB headroom for peaks...(But I like my RMS for the whole track in Rock/Pop to actually about -19) Of course it depends on the track!

If -10 was the broadcast standard for brick wall RMS...then you would see much better sounding recordings overall.

"""I always fear hearing the other guy's song on the radio louder than mine. """

well i got this one track on the radio right now that is quite a bit lower [-19dBFS RMS] than modern albums, not even "mastered" but on the radio sounds just as loud as everything else. go figure ;) i also have two other songs from two different HEAVY bands, one is mastered and fairly hot [althouigh WAY too bassy, it was the bassists fault ;) more me syndrome] and the other is unmastered and both loudness sound similar coming off the station into my receiver.

about that weezer cd, its really weird. hash pipe sounds great but every song after it basically sounds like they got the levels for one song and let it run with the same mix for the rest of the program. i just listen to it and get mad because i hear so many things that could of made the songs so much cooler.

same thing happens on the new black crowes. the songs CLA mixed sound like doo doo compared to the don was mixing team... although that album is a major disappointment [but i have some friends who LOVE it], just so uninspired to me. im starting to think the BC were a fluke with SHAMC being their only great cd. amorica is okay, the first one is mediocre. i think the two brothers fighting is more interesting than their music.

but it certainly is difficult these days with modern CD's... my tastes span time and genres that in a cd changer on random, the levels are OBSCENELY different. do you really want to be the one with the "quieter" cd?

another thing i notice besides the radio is that the louder cd's dont crank up the volume as well. they sound better at lower volumes IMO but totally lose out to more dynamic ones at loud volumes.

Don't you think that converters on a standered CD player would sound better if there not being pushed to the limit constantly by a super hot CD? The problem is on a multi CD player, bands don't want there CD to be any less louder than the CD played before. Radio doesn't matter. Mastering a CD with alot of harsh artifacts already there well make it almost un-listenable after smastering it.

Maybe bands should start putting a little note on the artwork

"This CD needs to be turned up, the material contained within is more dynamic than that Backstreet Boys CD you hide when your friends come around. Please enjoy at maximum volume."

Failing that, a CD player that reads ahead and calculates RMS and adjusts the levels accordingly?

Absolutely - it's the analog stage in the DAC that craps out - we're asking the converters to overshoot 0dbfs by as much as 8 db! And this doesn't apply to cheap players only - even the best DACs sound bad with this stuff, only a little more tolerable.

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood:

Absolutely - it's the analog stage in the DAC that craps out - we're asking the converters to overshoot 0dbfs by as much as 8 db! And this doesn't apply to cheap players only - even the best DACs sound bad with this stuff, only a little more tolerable.

Brad, do you ever listen through cheap D/As when your mastering for a minute or two as a real world check? I would imagine that a mastering engineer doing that is like using Auratones for a second to see how a mix translates.

....