1 : I started out with a peavy mixer in a hallway with mic wires running under a bedroom door. The most frustrating was to realise that you couldn't have 2 soundblaster live in a computer cause the drivers wouldn't allow it. So I discovered I could use a live and a sb16 to have 4 tracks input. This was 20years ago ! I've added gears and upgraded places to record over 8 years before building a real recording room.

2 : '' come hang out to my pro studio'' would have been nice to hear and do

3 : Right now, I don't struggle with knowledge, I'm just researching to refine my tools to fit a wide array of needs for different customers.

4 : Training out ears could only done by our-self. Parallele processing was something I found out years ago nearly by accident on a project (doubling a track and applying a tone of reverb to one track and none to the other, then blend the two was my first experiment)..

I go back a lot further than you do, so my own experiences differ from yours quite a bit... I started out in '78, which was the age of consoles and tape, which all the others here of my generation - audiokid, Kurt, Boswell, etc - also faced; things like biasing, alignment, calibration (of tape machines, consoles, NR units, etc)... It would be another 15 years before I would have to deal with PCi Card IRQ's, CPU speed, HD size and Memory amounts...

My entrance into the craft came about from being a musician/songwriter, who couldn't afford to purchase pro studio time to have my songs recorded, so I bought a small Biamp console, a 1/2" Otari 8 track, a couple dbx compressors, and a few effects devices... (actually, my first collection of OB FX devices were guitar pedals - LOL - flange, phase, delay...)

My first issues were knowledge based; things like EQ, gain reduction, gain structure - basically, all the fundamentals. I studied my ass off, picking up each new issue of Mix as it hit the news stands; and about 80% of the time, I didn't even understand what I was reading. I would read the technical articles, and they wouldn't really clear things up for me - because I was stupid - and 8 times out of 10, those articles left me with more questions than answers.

Eventually, I was lucky enough to meet a guy who was a pro engineer, who had real album credits, and I understudied with him...he had recently moved from Colorado, (where he had worked as an engineer at Caribou Ranch) to Ohio to work at Audio Technica (AT's headquarters is about 30 min from where I live) and I paid him to teach me everything he could. I saved up money, rented studio time from local pro rooms - mostly at night because the studio rates were 50% less - and we would both sit at the consoles (Neve's, MCI's, Neotek's, Amek's, Harrison's, etc), and he would teach me each function on the desks. Then we would mic things up -like drum kits, guitar amps, vocalists, etc., and record them to tape. He then taught me about processing, everything from GR to Reverb, and I learned more from him in one week than I did in two years of reading those recording articles in Mix Magazine. After that, it was just a matter of me doing it as much as possible. In those early days, I lived, breathed, ate and slept audio.

It's good to read and study... in fact it's absolutely necessary to study the technical side - but at some point, you have to apply that knowledge, to actually be able to hear for yourself what those various articles talk about. I also feel it's crucial to be able to hear what bad audio sounds like, too - uneven gain structure, mic distortion, bad EQ, too much gain reduction, etc.
Audio engineering is a science, in that you need to know things like db, voltage, gain structure, input an output levels, impedance, power supplies... but, it's also very application-oriented. At some point, you have to apply what you have previously learned about in written form.

There are many things I've learned on my own since, sometimes it's something cool that I would add to my bag of tricks, other times, and more often, it was learning what not to do.

FWIW

d.

Thank you both for your stories. Donny, i was touched. I love how your career took off, that's awesome.

As you said, you started out WAY before me. But i still have a little experience with tape machines as i am an audio nerd.

I realize that cutting, gluing etc. could be a pain in the ass sometimes, but hey, it still sounds AMAZING, at least to my ears.
The way cymbals sound on tape, oh my.
And with CLASP, things get even better. We actually recorded my solo album a few years back on tape and then imported that to Pro Tools. I don't like the way i sing on that record but the way the record sounds is amazing.

There's just something special with being 'physical'. It's like buying a physical album instead of downloading the digital version, it's a completely different, special, experience.

On tape, digitally, it doesn't matter, i still love the recording experience. I know i have been frustrated 4AM in the morning when i've recorded for the whole night and noticed i've done a big mistake at the source, who cares? I've laughed a bit and went to sleep and learnt from my mistake. Recording is like living the dream. The best part is that you can't learn EVERYTHING, so it always stays exciting. :)

Torsten Borg, post: 421066, member: 48194 wrote: 1. Can you remember some frustrating things that happened when you started out? Some complications with the software, sound card or something else that took on your nerves?

2. What would you have wanted somebody to have told you when you started out? Some mistake that was so unnecessary to go through?

3. What would you be interested in learning about home studio recording, something new or something you want to get better at?

4. Something you've learnt on your own, through a mistake or experimenting?

1. Ok, first off I date back to pre use of PCs and cards too. I began in 1975 with a tape recorder first, that was terrible. In 1984 I finally bought a Tascam 244 while living in Sydney. Metal tapes, recorded as Donny did using guitar effects pedals inline, for vocals I also had an Alesis Quadraverb. Plug a mic in and away you go!. Record 3 tracks bounce and so on. The issue fairly quickly with that was loss of quality as you bounced even beyond 9 takes.

2. I did have the opportunity in the mid 90s to go into a larger project studio, I had been fiddling with what was Twelve tones software cakewalk at the time. Guy had a 24 track tape teac a console and a Atari 1024ST I think. I admit I didn't pay a lot of attention at the time to what else he had, or as time has gone on, I have forgotten some of it, been a busy life. He took me in and showed me some of what he did. I wish he had explained more to me about GR and EQ. I instead did what Donny did initially, Mix Magazine and Sound on Sound etc.

3. Always learning stuff. I currently am at a point where I am delving deeper into Logic Pro X ( have David N.s book) Also working on learning my Yamaha Motif XF8 better. I have so much gear at this point it takes too much focus away from just recording music. As a songwriter/singer I want to perform, not be a technical geek, and yet, I have no choice. I would love to get someone local to look at my gear and tell me what I can do without, and what to put in place with the new setup.

4. I have learned to pay attention to where I start, what mic worked, what setting worked. Create and use a template to save time. Make sure those drum mics, if used, are situated correctly in the mix, not just sounding right. Noobie mistake in recent months, didn't reverse the left and right overheads, the result was overheads didn't gel with the bleed. It's always little things that trip you up. Biggest lesson of all, do it more, I have been mired down with SO much moving in 27 years, and the times where I finally get to take a breath is too short. Now I finally have a proper space, I am close to being able to focus properly, at long last.

Torsten Borg, post: 421066, member: 48194 wrote: 1. Can you remember some frustrating things that happened when you started out? Some complications with the software, sound card or something else that took on your nerves?

From the start of what I'll call my "professional" career...

Having to walk out on stage in front of 10,000 people to swap a mic cable that's screwing up a performance is best done as quickly and seamlessly as possible. You cannot afford to take any more than 10 seconds at most. You can't just saunter your butt across the deck and interrupt a whole show.

You save steps by FIRST throwing out the mic cable TO the point where it's needed. Only then you interrupt the stage and take care of business... FAST... and get your ass off that deck.

Kinda' makes you look like an idiot when you have to untangle a wad of a bird's nest in mid throw.

Wrapping cables properly... it's my single biggest pet peeve. If you cannot wrap a cable, or if you don't like to wrap cables... go find something else to do.

You live and die by signal flow. That flow is by cable... You better know as much about them as you can.

2. What would you have wanted somebody to have told you when you started out? Some mistake that was so unnecessary to go through?

I wish that someone would have kept me from buying into this insanity and told me to stick with quilting, shuffleboard, high priced hookers, sports cars or painting. This is an expensive game to play. You are automatically in "competition" with the guys who have $20 invested, to $20 MILLION invested. (Guess what divides the big boys from the little guys???)

While anyone can make a recording, there's just no way to make proper recordings of playing musicians without a shit ton of good gear and far more hours as seem fathomable just to even get mediocre results.

If you're happy with mediocre, then fine... be happy. But realize that you're likely to stay at mediocre for the rest of your life. Those are just the odds.

Think about it... since the advent/milestone of Apple putting garbageband on EVERY computer sold for the last 10 years, the explosion of millions of people creating music has been both wonderful, and vexing... at best.

The good news is; anyone can make music... the bad news is; anyone can make music.

At some point, many folks, (myself included) have/had dreams of being the next Elvis or some such star status. But the odds are seriously better for getting hit by lightning than to make a living in the music/audio industry... much less becoming a "star" of any magnitude.

But if you are a home recordist, who eventually ends up working with other artists and groups to the point that you're prepared to charge these folks good money... then please, don't charge like a professional, nor call yourself a professional. You cheapen the ability for those who are NOT happy with mediocrity to earn a living.

It's ok to call yourself a budding professional... a hobbyist or even an amateur. It's seriously OK to be honest with your early clients. You're NOT a professional... why would you be charging like one?

[REALITY RANT ON]
If you are a home recordist, you probably have another source of income. Lets say you work at a manufacturing plant of some sort. How would you appreciate it if someone agreed to perform your job at one tenth of what you make? (Just for the exposure, you know... we'll make more money later as we get better.) Especially when you've been trained and on the job for 5 or 10 years? Then you find out that the person performing your job doesn't even have the proper tools to even do a half assed job, much less the skill and experience to do the job in a timely, if not profitable manner...

So, you gotta start buckling and lower your wages just to keep the lights on at home.

And because there are hundreds of other newbies who daily join the ranks of millions who have the stars in their eyes, you get to fight this battle every single day of your existence.

Every swingin' dick with a computer is now competition for an income source... including your parents, siblings and your children.[END REALITY RANT]

THAT's the current state of professional audio and video.

To that end; If you really think you can make a living in this industry, go for it... but realize it comes at a pretty hefty price tag... at best. At worst, you just accept that you are throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars away.

3. What would you be interested in learning about home studio recording, something new or something you want to get better at?

I'm no longer what I would call a home recordist, so with the question rather open ended and pretty open to interpretation, I'll take a swing from a professional operation's standpoint that grew from a curiosity and a hobby.

So, while the craft of recording is something to enjoy as a hobby, I seriously question the motivation of the gear manufacturers that flood the marketplace with, albeit amazing quality level - given the bang for the buck, equipment... that promises far more than it's capable of delivering. While given the fact that demand dictates supply, it cheapens the value of the end product if "good enough" becomes the accepted norm.

It used to be that you really did need to understand the electronics involved in recording, to be able to actually do any recording. That mainstream reality has now changed to meaning very little electronics is necessary, even though there's an entire industry built on the electronics. Recording video and music are now being hyped as requiring nothing more than a basic understanding of a GUI.

It still doesn't change the fact that there 3 types of music that require their own skills to accurately reproduce.

In live music recording, human beings, along with all their faults and foibles require a working knowledge of acoustics, music theory, general psychology, kitten herding and physics... at a minimum.

In synthetic music, one only needs the knowledge of software and buzzwords. Lots of other traits including discipline, imagination and fast motor skills are favored.

In hybrid, you get the worst of both worlds, and few rewards... but you might end up having fun.

Either way, there are no shortcuts to being a good engineer. No matter how much your ass occupies chair time in a classroom, no matter how many books you read, forums that you haunt or seminars you attend, actually getting your hands dirty and doing something often enough to know what sux and what doesn't... Well, it just takes time... unless good enough is good enough.

And moving from a hobby to a profession really does mean you'll probably suk for a good while before you get better... and the gear doesn't really matter. Granted, good shit ain't cheap and cheap shit ain't always good, but knowledge gets you there a lot better than just expensive gear.

So, the one thing I always want to get better at, is accepting that there's always a need to get better... Otherwise, I'm stuck with finding a way to be satisfied with not being the best I could be.

4. Something you've learned on your own, through a mistake or experimenting?

You can't teach experience.

1.) Can you remember some frustrating things that happened when you started out? Some complications with the software, sound card or something else that took on your nerves?

Life is frustrating. Its never been easy but somehow I keep eating. Performing in shitty sound rooms is really frustrating. And computers are the worst thing man has ever created, but i keep using them and putting people out of business and writing about it with crappy skills.

My Mom was a Metropolitan Opera singer. The moment I was born I was cursed.
As soon as I turned 20 I was on the road and never saw home for 18 years. I started out in bands, then started mixing and playing, often both at the same time. I've played in smoky bars to the Sky Dome. In 98 I needed to learn more about mixing so I created a forum called RO.

After all these years, my last post pretty much sums it up. I have one of the coolest hybrid systems on the planet. I wish this was the 70's again and I had all those years ahead of me to spin talent like Motown did.
Maybe I'd hope a bunch of guys from RO would join me and we'd take it to the limit.

The gear that passes through here is cool, what a riot it would be to own this site when the music industry was healthy and vibrant. Today, its karaoke pop and I'm not sure I like all the extra riffs singers put in everything.
The lack of musicians and the quest of perfection has made music pathetic compared to the last 2 centuries. I don't care about perfect, never have. I like to feel the music. thats what keeps me craving it.
I have always kept my eye on the current ball, I mean, if you want to earn a living doing this, you keep your ear on the sound of the streets. Music notes are notes. But when you attached notes to distortion people take notice. So, I pay close attention to my audience and try and emulate what we are all feeling. So, its not so much about being perfect, I'm always looking for the attitude in music. This has always kept me pro, I mean, making a living with music.

2.)What would you have wanted somebody to have told you when you started out? Some mistake that was so unnecessary to go through?

My kids are talented like me. They are gifted but I'm almost on a destructive path with them because I don't know if I want to see them follow my life. The music business is a terrible disappointment. Why? imagine spending your entire life to be a master at it and none of that really matters. I mean, we need to eat.
This business really has a lot less of what we all of us are so good at.

I spent too much time performing cover songs in my early days, when I should have starved and kept writing. I knew it but my parents broke up, my mom became ill and I was tossed out on my own with know one but my guitar on my back. We do what we have to do. Covers kept me alive. I'm glad I listened to that.

3.) What would you be interested in learning about home studio recording, something new or something you want to get better at?

Emulation
I'm super excited about Sequoia and the virtual world. I've always loved technology and emulation. I love emulation so much I was one of Western Canada's top booked techno duos for ten years. Its been fun putting people out of business too.

4) Something you've learnt on your own, through a mistake or experimenting?
This is my site and everyone here means the world to me. I hope you all know that. I have an attitude and but my reasons. This was never a hobby for me. Its a way of life, music that is. Its a weird business. My entire life has been an experiment and I seem to make a lot of mistakes, many on purpose. Its fun figuring out the ones to keep.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]How did you feel when you first started out?[/]="http://recording.or…"]How did you feel when you first started out?[/]
Amazed and super grateful. The day I stood on stage and saw all the people dancing was an amazing moment. And to think, I was being paid to play my guitar. I could finally take care of myself playing a guitar. That was 1978.

My first proper recording was for theatre, with Ferrograph r-r, splicing tape and razor blades. Series 7 first, then a Super 7 - then Teac 3340 - which we even did mobile Jazz sessions on. The late 70s had us mastering to ¼" sony Elcaset - which I rather liked. Then we got a Sony F1 Betamax, which was our first digital audio recording system. We stayed with F1 till the late 80s and bought our first DAT machine, and had quite a few as the damn things wore out so fast. Multitrack for us remained with the 3340, and stayed firmly 4 track. 8 track was beyond our budget and client needs. Straight into ADAT in the early90s - then around the same time (1994?) we started Cubase for MIDI on Atari 530s - we then bought a Soundscape system Midstream - with a couple of cards, and had it running 16 channels. We started recording our audio on Cubase once it could do it, and despite a foray into protools, around 2000 or so, stuck with Cubase - mainly because most of our work still involves MIDI. Our archive has a few sundry cassettes, loads of ADAT, lots of DAT and the odd F1 - none of which we can play, and looking at the labels, nothing worthy of transferring. I think most of our busying decisions were, to be honest, a bit random. The trouble we had trying to sync items up never seemed easy. That's our kind of weird path through the machinery. What always annoys me is that our work is usually thrown away when shows are finished. We'll spend maybe two weeks on one play in track, use it for a month, then never go back to it. Ten years worth of shows for one client - all remarkably similar, many a bit technically clever - maybe with synchronised video and multitrack outs, and totally worthless for future use!

Some great stuff done over the years but we don't ever expect it to be used again. Just one of our products ended up with enough copies out there to reach the very, very low end of the public charts - and that was of course a buy out, making us very little money! We also do theatre archive recordings, usually for the production company - and none of these are ever for public consumption. In fact, I tried to get one back to do something with, and they couldn't even find the stuff in store! A bit like a black hole that our stuff gets dropped into.

My first midi sequencer was Cakewalk for DOS. LOL

I had a midi card for my PC - a blazingly fast 386 (I'm joking of course) with 300 MEG of HDD space and 1 meg of ram. The midi card also had a SMPTE sync/generator I/O function, and it actually worked surprisingly well for synchronizing tape deck tracks with the sequencer.

The sequencer itself was just a simple note on/off technology, there were no internal sounds, I had to send the PC midi commands out to external tone modules and keyboards - stuff like Proteus Modules, an Ensoniq VFX keyboard, and eventually, an Alesis D4 drum module. I synchronized all of it using SMPTE time code ( 30 FND) - "striping" a track of time code on my multi track deck, so when I would start the play / rec button on the tape machine, the sequencer would also start in perfect time.

I know this all sounds like a joke now, but at the time it worked very well, and I actually managed to create some pretty good music with that rig.

My first console with automation was a Neotek Elan, which had its own automation computer package.
No flying faders though...(I wouldn't have that luxury until years later when I bought a pair of Yamaha 02R's, and while the 02R was technologically superior, it didn't sound nearly as nice as the Neotek did.)

The Elan's automation was all simple VCA -based; faders and switches only, (it could turn the EQ on and off, but it wouldn't write or store where the EQ settings actually were, you had to chart that.) and if you wanted to recall a mix, you loaded the 3.5 disc into the drive, called up and loaded the project you had saved, put your tape at the right song position, then you found the correct fader-start positions by moving them up to position until the "null" light on the fader would come on, and this was your starting point for beginning the mix at the proper position.

Things have come a long way. And while I've learned much since I first went into digital (kicking and screaming), I learned the most concentrated amount of knowledge in those very early days, when we still had to do a lot of things ourselves, as opposed to now, where much of what we used to do by hand and brain is now done for us by a computer.

It's very easy to get wrapped up in the "technology" side of recording - sometimes even to the point of putting the artistic side second. It takes a special mind to be able to marry both of these things equally.
These days, it seems that I "hear" so much more of the technology coming through in songs, but I don't hear as much of the creative side, I don't hear as much of the art of the craft of recording and production.

IMO of course.

d.

MadMax, post: 421103, member: 1402 wrote: Think about it... since the advent/milestone of Apple putting garbageband on EVERY computer sold for the last 10 years, the explosion of millions of people creating music has been both wonderful, and vexing... at best.

I wouldn't have any issue with it at all, if it was used as it was intended...

...either as a way to have some fun on a hobby-level, or, as a writing, pre-production tool, where a songwriter gets their basic ideas down with it, with the intent of taking the song(s) to a real studio - like Max's - to professionally record and mix it.

The problem I have with it, is that far too many think that it's a professional format, and too many of its users are under the impression that what they can do with the program is just as good as what a pro facility can do.

And it's not made for that. It's an easy to use, no-brainer toy, or, as mentioned above, a decent writing or notepad kind of tool.

DonnyThompson, post: 421147, member: 46114 wrote: My first midi sequencer was [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.cakewalk…"]Cakewalk[/]="http://www.cakewalk…"]Cakewalk[/] for DOS. LOL

I too had early Cakewalk for DOS version. I think it was 3.1 and then I had the 4, 5 and there Eureka :love: : the cakewalk pro audio 6, added recording audio for the first time to the software. It was a revelation for me.. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 421148, member: 46114 wrote: I wouldn't have any issue with it at all, if it was used as it was intended...

...either as a way to have some fun on a hobby-level, or, as a writing, pre-production tool, where a songwriter gets their basic ideas down with it, with the intent of taking the song(s) to a real studio - like Max's - to professionally record and mix it.

The problem I have with it, is that far too many think that it's a professional format, and too many of its users are under the impression that what they can do with the program is just as good as what a pro facility can do.

And it's not made for that. It's an easy to use, no-brainer toy, or, as mentioned above, a decent writing or notepad kind of tool.

***WARNING***
THREAD HIJACK IN PROGRESS

That's what I meant about the dubious claims from the equipment manufacturers.

Labeling everything as "professional" and/or "professional quality" is seriously misleading. Yes, a professional could make a recording using said gear. But it's not likely to happen because the end result is a product that has a lot more under the hood than some single piece of gear or software.

It's dubious from the standpoint that this type of lableing automatically makes the user a "professional"... or at best, leads the way to anyone becoming a producer of professional music from "proper" use of the most mediocre of equipment.

***END HIJACK***

There really are quite a few additional "anecdotes" that go along with this thread of things I wish I had been told;
(Or at least I now wish I had listened.)

1) Good shit ain't cheap and cheap shit ain't always good
(Relating to this not being a poor mans game.)
Whether it's the excitement of finding a "deal", getting a shiny new toy, or just having money burning a hole in your pocket; This stuff is somewhat addictive. When you do this as a hobby or for fun, you should stick with those toys you can afford, and don't look much further than something like a cassette, Zoom, or simple 2 track recorder. Your wallet will thank you... and your spouse will let you sleep less on the couch than you will otherwise.

2) “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” - Hunter S. Thompson

At certain levels in this industry, there is a preponderance of smarmy people... Primarily on the equipment front as your introduction to the home recordists world begins... but one will soon find exists at every level of this industry... with heavy concentrations around where money is located.

Snake oil abounds wherever you go. But there is no better example than with $1000 power cords that aren't any better than a $20 power cord.

OR

The $500 rocks you place on your turntable to "enrich the harmonic content to align with the stars"... BS.

3) "A fool and his money are soon parted."
(See 1 and 2 above.)

4) "This shit ain't easy."
There's more to recording than just throwing up microphones, dialing up some level and viola'... you have a perfect recording.

If you are actually recording instruments or just vocals, there is an order of importance.

1. Source (If it doesn't sound good at the start, the best you can hope for is that it doesn't sound good.)
2. Environment (If your room suks, or is inappropriate, you can only do so much to fix it.)
3. Microphone (No microphone can isolate sound that you only get the source... you will ALWAYS get some environment)
4. Mic Pre (A noisy or colored pre may or may not be appropriate... they're all different)
5. Converter/Recording Device (Accuracy come at a cost)
6. Playback Environment (There's a lot of savings for DIY'er's, but there IS some math and physics involved)
7. Playback System (Again, accuracy comes at a cost)
8. Monitors (Monitors, playback system and playback environment are actually one cohesive unit.)

   5) Everything costs 3 times what you think it will, and/or will take twice as long as you planned.
   Whether it's your home studio build, or just buying enough gear to get started as a hobbyist, there are many hidden costs. The biggest is your cabling. It's great to have 24 channels of converters, but you have to get those analog signals in... through cables... which have connectors, and wire and labor associated with them. Then there's backing up your computer, and while drives are inexpensive, they aren't free... Just like glue, caulk, screws and nails are some uglies that eat the ass out of your wallet when you build... not to mention bad cuts on lumber, plywood and drywall.

   If you think time can't get away from you, realize that even in my case, missing two to three days on getting a task done cost me at least 40 hours just moving rigid insulation around the studio waiting to be installed... and ultimately put me 5 months behind on completing my studio build.

   6) It's ALL about the music.
   (If this isn't self explainitory, then I would ask you why the hell are you even doing this?)

Thank you all so much for your answers. Helps me out a lot!

Torsten

MadMax, post: 421103, member: 1402 wrote: You can't teach experience.

Best sentence i've read for a looong time.

audiokid, post: 421106, member: 1 wrote: This was never a hobby for me. Its a way of life, music that is.

Word.

paulears, post: 421117, member: 47782 wrote: My first proper recording was for theatre, with Ferrograph r-r, splicing tape and razor blades. Series 7 first, then a Super 7 - then Teac 3340 - which we even did mobile Jazz sessions on. The late 70s had us mastering to ¼" sony Elcaset - which I rather liked. Then we got a Sony F1 Betamax, which was our first digital audio recording system. We stayed with F1 till the late 80s and bought our first DAT machine, and had quite a few as the damn things wore out so fast. Multitrack for us remained with the 3340, and stayed firmly 4 track. 8 track was beyond our budget and client needs. Straight into ADAT in the early90s - then around the same time (1994?) we started Cubase for MIDI on Atari 530s - we then bought a Soundscape system Midstream - with a couple of cards, and had it running 16 channels. We started recording our audio on Cubase once it could do it, and despite a foray into protools, around 2000 or so, stuck with Cubase - mainly because most of our work still involves MIDI. Our archive has a few sundry cassettes, loads of ADAT, lots of DAT and the odd F1 - none of which we can play, and looking at the labels, nothing worthy of transferring. I think most of our busying decisions were, to be honest, a bit random. The trouble we had trying to sync items up never seemed easy. That's our kind of weird path through the machinery. What always annoys me is that our work is usually thrown away when shows are finished. We'll spend maybe two weeks on one play in track, use it for a month, then never go back to it. Ten years worth of shows for one client - all remarkably similar, many a bit technically clever - maybe with synchronised video and multitrack outs, and totally worthless for future use!

Some great stuff done over the years but we don't ever expect it to be used again. Just one of our products ended up with enough copies out there to reach the very, very low end of the public charts - and that was of course a buy out, making us very little money! We also do theatre archive recordings, usually for the production company - and none of these are ever for public consumption. In fact, I tried to get one back to do something with, and they couldn't even find the stuff in store! A bit like a black hole that our stuff gets dropped into.

Thanks for your story.

MadMax, post: 421155, member: 1402 wrote: If you are actually recording instruments or just vocals, there is an order of importance.

1. Source (If it doesn't sound good at the start, the best you can hope for is that it doesn't sound good.)
2. Environment (If your room suks, or is inappropriate, you can only do so much to fix it.)
3. Microphone (No microphone can isolate sound that you only get the source... you will ALWAYS get some environment)
4. Mic Pre (A noisy or colored pre may or may not be appropriate... they're all different)
5. Converter/Recording Device (Accuracy come at a cost)
6. Playback Environment (There's a lot of savings for DIY'er's, but there IS some math and physics involved)
7. Playback System (Again, accuracy comes at a cost)
8. Monitors (Monitors, playback system and playback environment are actually one cohesive unit.)

So true! What is your opinion on cables then? I'd like to think that ''the studio is as good as it's weakest link'', do you agree?

Torsten Borg, post: 421162, member: 48194 wrote: So true! What is your opinion on cables then? I'd like to think that ''the studio is as good as it's weakest link'', do you agree?

Man, this is pretty subjective, a topic that can go all direction which is based and actual hearing, our monitoring, related gear, and illusion. If you can't hear well or don't have the level of gear that will translate in the first place, who's zooming who? But, how much of this also matters anyway? I think accumulative when I think about this stuff. On its own, who cares, but, maybe a whole studio with bad power, cheap cabling, average ADDA, mid level analog gear etc etc etc, who can tell whats what. And so it goes.
Vovox is the epitome of DUH! but I have done tests and know good cable sounds better than cheap stuff. I have silver here and I like using it on my summing system.
My kids hear differences more than me. My 6 year old hear the top end best. We've tried to fool her in blind tests on all sorts of sonic things and she never misses. 4 years difference between my youngest and the middle child is a difference of hearing 17k to 20k. I'm rolling off at 15k.

audiokid, post: 421163, member: 1 wrote: 4 years difference between my youngest and the middle child is a difference of hearing 17k to 20k. I'm rolling off at 15k.

Wow. It always comes as a shock to me when i hear stuff like this. I'm so scared that when i'm in my 60's or 70's i won't hear over 5k, haha.

DonnyThompson, post: 421148, member: 46114 wrote: I wouldn't have any issue with it at all, if it was used as it was intended...

...either as a way to have some fun on a hobby-level, or, as a writing, pre-production tool, where a songwriter gets their basic ideas down with it, with the intent of taking the song(s) to a real studio - like Max's - to professionally record and mix it.

The problem I have with it, is that far too many think that it's a professional format, and too many of its users are under the impression that what they can do with the program is just as good as what a pro facility can do.

And it's not made for that. It's an easy to use, no-brainer toy, or, as mentioned above, a decent writing or notepad kind of tool.

some of these "toys" actually sound decent (passable?). much i hear all the time about some indie band that put out a hit record they recorded on some type of a potty studio or garage band. the line between what is a "real" studio and what is "REAL" studio is very blurry. the day of the thriving mid level studio is past. it's either Majors or bush leagues. and that's why i don't see any gain to be had by spending a sh*t load of money.

Torsten Borg, post: 421162, member: 48194 wrote: So true! What is your opinion on cables then? I'd like to think that ''the studio is as good as it's weakest link'', do you agree?

i don't hear any differences. as long as it's decent quality wire Belden Studio wire is fine to my ears.

Knowledge is everything. Knowing where I need help is how I get things done really well. I'm a master at some and a jack of a lot.
I know I need a stool to reach the cookies . My kids equal the stool when it comes to anything above 15k.

Knowing where we shine or fall short is the difference of winning or failure.

The most important thing I've discovered in this business is how subjective everything is.

The test I did with cable also yielded different results from various pres
When I used my MP 2NV, I never a difference.mi also used DPA transformer less

Interesting thread.

Regarding gear in general. There are three parts to this business of gear. Music. Recordist and audience
If you can think like all three, I think you are doing well. If you think like the audience, less gear matters.
In the end, it's music that matters.

I just received my Studiolive 24.4.2 . It's all I need to make and capture music, but it isn't all I need to do really serious stuff as a business.
Its the detail that helps us learn and demystify, wade through/ filter out all the crap, hype and confusion over things like cables etc. The expensive part of this business is in the detail. I never knew how to get the detail until I bought great gear. Now I'm learning how to emulate it ITB and it is possible. So, I stand corrected. I know I can record, mix and master in a DAW. Maybe I was naive or it has been excuse to justify I can't get a great mix because I don't have something. Pre-amps and mics, oh ya! Those make huge difference. But once you have it ITB, a DAW can hit a home run too.

I personally think there is a point when it's stupid. But try telling that to people so fussy about one note slightly out of tune. They obsess over it until it all sounds like a dead machine.
people think the next eq is going to get them more business .

The truth is. Gear matters and cable does make a difference in sound. But the audience or people that don't care never hear the stuff we obsess over.

I think Kurt is pretty balanced.

The older we get, the more we realize how little all this obsession matters.

MadMax, post: 421155, member: 1402 wrote: Labeling everything as "professional" and/or "professional quality" is seriously misleading. Yes, a professional could make a recording using said gear. But it's not likely to happen because the end result is a product that has a lot more under the hood than some single piece of gear or software.

Labeling is a pain ! I saw an add this morning for a professional 3 tones car lift, you had to pump it manually.. LOL NO professional garage will use those for sure. The claims are so wrong in the recording industry, people get lost all the time.

I feel like the stores are saying : 'hey you stupid, give us your money and we'll give you dreams' !!

I just had to post this professional 25$ mic :
http://www.tinydeal.com/fr/mini-professional-karaoke-microphone-for-mobile-phone-computer-p-135003.html

Come on !!!!

Kurt Foster, post: 421165, member: 7836 wrote: the line between what is a "real" studio and what is "REAL" studio is very blurry. the day of the thriving mid level studio is past. it's either Majors or bush leagues.

Oh DAWM ! I'm in the bush leagues !! ;)

audiokid, post: 421167, member: 1 wrote: In the end, it's music that matters.

^^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^^

The expensive part of this business is in the detail.

The devil is ALWAYS in the details.

The truth is. Gear matters and cable does make a difference in sound. But the audience or people that don't care never hear the stuff we obsess over.

And THAT is what is "wrong" with the "industry" today. There's more and more emphasis on the fact that it doesn't matter if the quality or craft of consistency is in the end product. The emphasis is on selling cheap, easy to use, low cost of ownership, poor quality of support recording gear for the masses. There is little expectation of knowledge base by the consumer, as they just don't actually know that there is indeed a real science behind the learned craft of recording.

It takes time to be dedicated to learning about what an instruments sounds like in different environments. What micropones tend to sound like in those different environments. Plus what the environments sound like... much less the effect of the sonic characteristics of different environments and instruments as they interact... and what happens electronically.

I KNOW that there are some "hobbiest" folks that have taken it upon themselves to learn and focus on the craft, that rival even the most decorated professionals in the industry... and for them... that's the way they like it... I say kudos to them and everyone else who really desire to expand their knowledge!

I think Kurt is pretty balanced.

Oh?!? You're REALLY gonna put that on Kurt?!?
Ain't no one that's actually a working professional in this screwed up industry that's really what one would cal... all THAT "balanced", if you know what I mean... o_O

I guess one other thing that's missing from what I wish I had been told... If you're not crazy when you start in this business... You should either get out now, or learn how to potty train wild animals. Either one will save you from having to heard kittens, be a bartender, and otherwise become the person responsible for breaking and crushing the most delicate of egos... from children to grown men... to those who deserve to be utterly crushed from their own ego's, who cannot stand to be in a room with themselves, much less someone's differing opinion... who's opinion is based upon decades of experience.

It's not just knowing when to say "no"... but it's also HOW you say "no"... Hell, who am I kidding?? It's even more important than whether you say "no" or not.

The older we get, the more we realize how little all this obsession matters.

That's only true as time on task allows one to cut to the chase and sift through all the BS... allowing the things that do matter most to manifest themselves in their proper perspectives.

I used to panic when I realised my hearing was dropping off at the top but now I can not hear 16k at all it doesn't seem to matter in my day to day music activities. Loading up some of my ancient stuff and having a look at it on an analyser, there really isn't much up there that now I can't hear. My son can hear when I play something and remove the stuff over 15k but he can't articulate very well what it is? Asked which he prefers he oddly said the filtered version because it was more comfy??? Maybe what is up there isn't that useful? Very odd.

Thanks, gents. Interesting perspective for a newbie like myself.

paulears, post: 421182, member: 47782 wrote: Maybe what is up there isn't that useful? Very odd.

It's kinda cool when you take a low pass filter and slowly reduce the highs. Not only does it train you ear in recognizing different frequencies but it really makes you realize that there aren't THAT much useful stuff up there. I mean, yes of course, a tambourine for example will have a lot of energy in the very highs but do we hear it and pay attention to that? I don't know.

From a business or learning perspective,
The key is recognizing weaknesses and dealing with it. Like a pair of glasses help, so can a trusted pair of other ears. Or, knowing the acoustic environment and monitoring system very well. Its all part of the "picture" we see and hope translates.

If you are aware of inevitable aging factor sooner than later, you can avoid bad habits and unnecessary expenditures on things to get siblance that was already there. I think it also shows up in dipping mids too much.

This industry is very subjective.
Another reason why record companies have specialized people mixing and mastering the important stuff.
Why one mans opinion isn't necessarily accurate to another in a control room or shoot out.
Or why we will never please or convince the blind that do not know what they see.

Something I have been cautious about,
Can I make critical decisions, choices between various products with transformers in a chain? I mean, isn't that like putting cotton in your ears? So, might be a good thing for individual tracks but in chain, or master section... ?

Its all so subjective and we don't even know it at times.

My brother was a computer guy. I told them I wanted to make recordings with a computer. So he got me a Macintosh LC-2. And then I bought a soundcard for it. Only to discover that it can only record one channel of audio at 16 bit but at 22,500 Hz sampling. So it was useless. I had to wait a few years until I got a Windows 95 computer with a sound blaster card. But the sound blaster card sounded okay for playing back CD's but it made terrible recordings. So then I got a Edirol USB soundcard. But the microphone input still sounded bad. So then I got a small mixer and plug that into the line input of the Sound Blaster card and it sounded a lot better. I was using Cool Edit 96. But I couldn't do any multitrack recording with that. Until they came out with Cool Edit Pro. Then I got okay sound but it wasn't great. Better than my cassette recorder for sure.

GBH

Torsten Borg, post: 421188, member: 48194 wrote: It's kinda cool when you take a low pass filter and slowly reduce the highs. Not only does it train you ear in recognizing different frequencies but it really makes you realize that there aren't THAT much useful stuff up there. I mean, yes of course, a tambourine for example will have a lot of energy in the very highs but do we hear it and pay attention to that? I don't know.

I'm afraid your statement is rather flawed.

Generally, our hearing range decreases over time through lack of necessity. When we are younger, and more vulnerable to dangers, we use that upper range to detect those things and probably use the information primarily as safety mechanisms.

Since higher frequencies are more directional than low frequencies, the brain processes those high pitches to establish directionality. There has been some discussion given as to whether the extended hearing tends to drop off because we learn about our environment, or whether we just become more vulnerable out of necessity to make room for offspring.

In music applications, up to 40% of a cymbal's power is above the 20kHz range, that extends well past 100kHz. Piano's extend well above 70kHz and speech sibilance extends over 40kHz. ... so making a broad statement that there isn't much useful up there is just plain not true.

You may want to go back and research some of the major discussions on sample rates when digital sampling was first proposed... or even further back to the heated arguments of the frequency spectrum to be allocated for audio in broadcast television... and before that, the major battles that raged in the early days of FM and AM radio.

There is an interesting sensitivity difference between men and women as well. I don't recall the exact freq's but women tend to be more sensitive in the freq area around baby cry's. And men around the entire sound of women bossing us lol! This could also include some dynamics :D

I never get my wife to check my mixes. I trust her musical options but rarely critical freq.
I do trust my kids for the top end. We all have our attributes.

audiokid, post: 421346, member: 1 wrote: And men around the entire sound of women bossing us lol! This could also include some dynamics :D

Ahhh yes... this is a quite well known phenomenon known as "Selective Hearing Loss"...

If I don't listen when it's important, TheBoss© selects something... usually nothing breakable... and creates "dynamics" on my head... and I never hear it coming... and thus is a double loss.

SHL=(IQ-(W+I/LM))/2 * (LM/C)

SHL=Selective Hearing Loss
IQ=IQ
W=Wife
I=Importance
LM=Length of Marriage
C=Children***

***In the case of Grandchildren, calculate C as: (C*(GC*4))

MadMax, post: 421345, member: 1402 wrote: Since higher frequencies are more directional than low frequencies, the brain processes those high pitches to establish directionality. There has been some discussion given as to whether the extended hearing tends to drop off because we learn about our environment, or whether we just become more vulnerable out of necessity to make room for offspring.

In music applications, up to 40% of a cymbal's power is above the 20kHz range, that extends well past 100kHz. Piano's extend well above 70kHz and speech sibilance extends over 40kHz. ... so making a broad statement that there isn't much useful up there is just plain not true.

Makes sense. Thanks for the input!

I've heard that a lot of guys (including myself, when i started out) have had problems with syncing the audio interface with the DAW. I have my own solutions of how to avoid this, but could you give your thoughts on the topic?

Thank you,
Torsten

You need to be more specific, Torsten...

Are you referring to getting computers and multi track tape machines to sync? Or getting external midi devices to sync with your DAW... or... are you talking about the latency that can be an issue when using your DAW with external processing gear like compressors, EQ, special FX, etc... ?

I had a JLcooper for that purpose, used it with an Alesis XT20 which I just sold on ebay this week.
It took me a while to make it run smooth with cakewalk at the time, I didn't have world clock at the time !

DonnyThompson, post: 421425, member: 46114 wrote: You need to be more specific, Torsten...

Are you referring to getting computers and multi track tape machines to sync? Or getting external midi devices to sync with your DAW... or... are you talking about the latency that can be an issue when using your DAW with external processing gear like compressors, EQ, special FX, etc... ?

Sorry, my bad..

I'm referring to the 21st century USB or FireWire audio interface and the DAW. In general, people have had hard times getting signal to come into the DAW, problems with too much latency etc.

Too much latency ?? Don't open that door, you'll get a flood of whining on your thread!! ;)..

Seriously, I started to deal with latency once I left my old SB live and got more than 4 in/out interface.
It never stopped me from working but I always had to research system tweaks and optimisations when I prepared a new system.
Now with the more complex emulation plugins, it's getting critical to have a well tuned computer.