The thing about the "proof" question, is that there really is none. One person can't "prove" that analog is better than digital, or vice versa. It's subjective, it's relative.

Ask 100 different engineers of varying skill, experience, styles and yes, age groups, and you're likely to get some that prefer analog while others prefer digital.

If you ask Remy, or Kurt, or myself, or any of those cookers that came up through the age of analog and cut their teeth on higher-end analog gear, then you'll likely get from us a preference for analog.

OTOH, ask someone who was using a Fostex B16 and tracking through a Tangent board during that time, and they might say they like digital better - because that B16 was on the very low end of the analog ladder, and the Tangent was a pretty noisy beast. So from their point of view, the S to N ratio difference between low end analog and "average" digital is like night and day.

Ask someone who is into electronica or rap, and they will likely tell you that PT is where it's at for them.

It's all relative to whom you poll and what their experience(s) and preferred styles are - or were.

There are certainly times I miss the warmth of high end analog. And I do miss the tactile part... having an actual console surface to work with, but that's probably a holdover from my earlier days when that's what I did. OTOH, I don't miss the manual editing, I don't miss the biasing and alignment of decks, or the endless soldering of patch points. There are some that liked this part. I was not - and am still not - one of them.

There was a pretty big difference in analog gear. Top end stuff like Neve, API, etc., middle grade stuff like Neotek and Soundcraft, and lower end gear by Fostex, Tascam, etc, all had their own inherant sound. The price you paid for said gear largely dictated the quality.

With digital, all things being equal, if you take an "average" grade of audio I/O, converters and pre amps, you're gonna be fairly consistent with the sound - for good or bad, depending again on whom you talk to..
Yes... adding high end pres and converters will change that sound, but your format never needs to change accordingly.

With digital, your dollar buys a lot more bang for the buck - and again, it's relative to what you determine "bang" to be. But considering the endless choices of FX, Processors, samples, sounds and convenience, you can get into a pretty darn nice digital rig for around 10k, where in the analog world, that 10k can be eaten up pretty quickly by purchasing just a few high end channel strips, or a very used - and high maintenance - older "classic" console that in some cases, will end up being a hole in the floor in which you throw dollar after dollar into just to keep it operational...

And, as mentioned by myself and Kurt, from a business and revenue-turning aspect, you have to be able to justify the purchase of that high end stuff. Who is paying for it? If you're just doing it as a luxury for yourself, then God Bless. But if you are in business, you have to be able to charge accordingly for the luxury of having that gear available to your clients, and most run-of-the-mill clients on the current playing level in your average city don't care that you have a Neve or an SSL.. they look at the hourly rate - and when there's a dozen other PT studios around you charging $35 an hour, unless you're in Nashville, L.A., NYC or another metro area where that caliber is the norm, they're not gonna pay your rate of $100 per hour, no matter what gear you have.

Yeah, you could get lucky in Missoula, Montana (or Akron, OH) and have Tom Petty decide to track his next project at your place, but the chances are pretty high that this won't happen, and that your average daily clients will be gospel quartets, karaoke singers wanting a demo, local metal bands releasing a local CD, maybe a small handful of small club jazz cats that want a CD to sell at gigs that pay an average of $300 tops for a jazz trio...and for them, $100 an hour, based on the fact that you have a Neve or an SSL doesn't matter, they simply don't care, and even if they did they still couldn't afford you.

fwiw
-d.

Yup, Johnny and I both know how this business goes. It's largely unglamorous. I had a lovely basement studio basically since I was a kid. Yeah like starting at age 12. And you're making tape copies. Editing tapes. Cleaning things. Fixing things. Modifying things. Tweaking things. And then just like any musical instrument, you sit there and practice on it for hours on end. My mother used to yell down into the basement to get my ass outside and play with my friends. But no, I had a more important agenda since I had already decided to devote my life to this career at age 7. Now not too many people make that card of carry through commitment at that young age. And while I'm an extremely accomplished technician, that is not really what I live for. That's what other technicians live for. No, I wanted to design and build the equipment that I was going to use to record the musicians and later play them back on radio stations, myself. And that's exactly what I've dug doing throughout my career. And while Tom Petty won't be coming into your studio anytime soon (something I also knew even though we had the second-largest studio in Baltimore in the late 1970s) I later decided, with my background in live broadcast and wanting to work only with the best people in the industry, I would just have to go to them LOL. And so you build a truck up. And it could just be any old equipment. Certainly not budget stuff. And the pro audio equipment was so costly that only the record labels and very rich folks could afford to buy this stuff. So you bought that stuff they had that was old, used, worn-out and then ya had to restore it. But once you restored it, you had the stuff that the rich folks had in the rich studios. And you use or build your own crappy console, while you keep saving up for that " real deal desk ". Back in the day it was that " reel deal desk ". And your multitrack wasn't a $150 interface with 128 track software. No, choices were narrow width track format proconsumer machines that sound a little better than a cassette recorder. Or that 2 inch analog stuff. Where the machine would set you back $36,000 for a new one. About $15,000 for an old worn out used one you would have to sink a few thousand dollars into once you've got it. And I couldn't afford that used Ampex MM 1200-24. Bought I was able to locate a scavenged over partial parts machine, never intended to pull tape again. It was also missing a channels of electronics, the transport wiring harness, the transport control circuitboards. Busted remote which wasn't a remote unless ya put the cable on it. Otherwise it's set in the machines transport section. And when that doesn't work the entire machine doesn't work. And that was a bitch to troubleshoot and even keep going. So I got away getting that machine for around a little over $10,000 saving me over $5000. But it took months to get operational again. Because that was one of the best tracking machines ever built. It was an incredible meter banging machine. And then I had to have the high end luxury console to go with it.

High-end luxury consoles were still going used for around $45,000. Couldn't afford that for sure. But I could purchase 2 used excellent consoles made in Memphis Tennessee, Auditronics. Purchasing a used pair of those to, modify and tied together as one gargantuan 52 input/104 channels capable mix down to quadraphonic output. And I got away only paying $10,000 for those. But then this Sphere Eclipse C, was made available to me for only $17,000. 12 years earlier it was $85,000. One of the most premium consoles ever built in the USA back in the late 1970s. The forerunner of which was Electro- Dyne and the spinoff after Sphere was Quad Eight. A precious American treasure of a console. Much like an SSL 4000 but built in the USA. So the Auditronics went into the basement studio and the previous 16 track console was removed. And that went into another new bedroom control room set up strictly for voiceover commercial production and such. And the truck was rolling with the other gear. Then there was the truck which was a Mercedes-Benz. Because if you're going to have the best equipment, you'd want to have something more than a Ford or GM LOL. And then all the peripherals of which also had to be all the best stuff you'd find in the best control rooms. And that sure as hell wasn't cheap. That was a few racks with another $20,000 worth of equipment. The truck was $10,000 plus. And I have about $30,000 worth of microphones. And it was a good business plan while it lasted. And now it's guys like yourself with $1000 worth of stuff that can turn on a product every bit as good and even better than I can on my good stuff. But then my truck was also designed for a very different purpose. And that was essentially doing a live mix down of the band ya never heard before, didn't know anything about. And no microphone check. And in 30 seconds on the first song, that was the mix you pushed up. And it had to sound like a hit record in 30 seconds. At least ya had the advantage of knowing, even without a microphone check, what would be where, coming in. So you might already have some stuff pre-patched in such as your compressor limiter's, noise gates, digital reverbs and effects devices, all setup slightly differently and all setup to be fed from however many effects sends the consul could serve up LOL. And you are also tracking to 24 track without any of the stuff you are using for the live mix. So this was not just a matter of mixing, this was sophisticated signal routing that had a be accomplished with sometimes upwards of over 80 patch cords into the over 17, 48 point patchbays. And then in the rear room for all of the distribution amplifiers that also had to be routed and patched for their respective feeds for the radio station, for MTV, for the green rooms of the upcoming acts... all that stuff. While trying to mix a hit record in 30 seconds. Kind of like late-night infomercials with a full studio audience applauding over a vegetable slicer. Because that ain't recording studio work. That's hard-nosed professional industrial audio. And there were also continuously running problems on these huge jobs. A splitter might have a problem a microphone might go intermittent, a bad cord on stage, losing a tom-tom microphone or other such unrecoverable problems that couldn't sound like unrecoverable problems because you are on the air. So you really had to mix on your feet. And if you can't roll with continuous technical mishaps, lots of musicians come engineers have gone back to being just musicians. They can't contend with that kind of stuff. Because they really aren't engineers they're musicians. Other folks were engineers that also happen to be musicians like myself, George Massenburg and a whole lot of others. We didn't play in the band's. We recorded the bands. And sometimes you also had to read that musical score because some violinist came into your studio with his accompanist and you had to edit them between notes of a run of 32nd notes, run up the neck, with a grease pencil and a razor blade. And nobody but nobody should be able to hear. This violinist was well noted and had released previous albums. He said no one else could or had ever done and edit like that. He didn't think it was possible? And it isn't and wasn't for a lot of engineers. But that's real audio engineering and what it's all about. It certainly wasn't rock 'n roll and I had to be able to read that score. I had to do that for a lot of my operatic and symphonic work. So that such a practice is doing to become a real audio engineer.

Donny mentions a tweaking of tape recorders LOL yeah baby! You only had to do that once in a while for your own studio. The big studios, you did it before every session. So wasn't just a 24 track machines you had to tweak up in 20 minutes. It was also all of the two track machines as well. And we're talking about full playback and record alignment. Not just record. And you also had to know from the primary, A-1 engineer how he wanted his machine tweaked. How would you like your bias Sir? And half the time those engineers didn't even know what the bias was? They knew you would just make it right.

In the work I did, sometimes the radio station would supply me with a couple of CDs of a couple of the bands I would be mixing and broadcasting. And that would give me an idea, ahead of time, what I might pre-tweak. Like of the vocals had a certain effect on the CD or whether the drums had huge ambient gated reverb on the snare drums, nasty guitar sounds or clean guitars sounds, all that stuff also. And knowing how your equipment sounds and/or performs, allows you to be that kind of prepared to mix a hit record in 30 seconds. And then whatever that mix is, you just roll with it. You can not be making any major changes after that initial 30 seconds of the first song. So it better be good. And that's an awful lot of pressure. More than I know most engineers can handle.

A lot of guys are also too egotistical about their own facilities. Only they can be mixing and recording that no one else can. That certainly isn't professional. So my system and facility has to also appeal to other high level engineers that come in at the request of the client. Then I'm just the EIC and facilities manager along with being the A-2. I love to be a part of the crew. No problem working under other engineers, producers, directors. And you can't tell that engineer he can get a better sound and by just use your favorite compressor and microphone LOL they already know what they're doing and what they want. So what's perhaps my better is not necessarily their better. If they want my input that's different. They'll ask if they can get out of your system what they are trying to get. So this can frequently turn into a full-time job where you're working all day long and not getting paid. Because you're the boss. You're the owner. And it's hard to work another full-time gig when your own as a full-time gig. So ya better have some money saved up in the bank when ya quit your full-time gig and only go freelance and your own studio. Then you get a hostel for your work whether it's with your studio or at someone else's studio. So ya better be familiar with all of those consoles out there. Going to use one you've never used? Well you're going to be sitting on the toilet in the bathroom with that manual for lots of hours. And then you pick up the phone and call your friends who you've known to have also worked on that desk to get the skinny about anything you should also know? Animate the digital desk you've never used before, you might want to make sure they also include an A-2 (assistant engineer)? So this also includes an awful lot of homework and study. Lots of self-study. As you may also want to seek out seminars that you can frequently attend for free or at a very low cost, even for other equipment you never think you would use. And I don't even really do PA. Never really have. But every once in a while notable local bands that have recorded with me then asked me to do PA mixing for their big jobs. And I would love it when the PA guys get confused by my PA mixes on their PA systems come out sounding like someone is playing a CD? DUH? I wonder why that is? It's because I don't do PA. And so while I know some of these PA guys are absolutely fabulous PA guys, they ain't recording engineers. They only think they're recording engineers. And some have made the transition well. Others just make recordings that sound like they came off of PA board mixes. Which is exactly what they are. That's what they do. That ain't professional audio. That's PA recordings. Some will even tell you they've done broadcast mixes that way. Well that's not a broadcast mix either. That's a PA mix for broadcast. And these small RCH's make a huge difference in the sound of the product. Unfortunately today, the kids are all too used to drive-through McDonald's. And these bands think there recordings sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yeah, sliced moldy bread. You know, how to make LSD. And so while the engineer and band might all be sober? The recording sounds inebriated, instead. And that's not how the pros do it. We smoked the stuff before we start. And then we give it to everybody else before we played back just to make sure it sounds good. I don't care what they think of it the next day LOL. I got paid. And while it still might not think it was the perfect recording? They still know they never sounded better. Which means ya did your job. And if you're lucky and it becomes famous so will you. But that's the lottery aspect only. Don't expect to win the lottery. But the more you do it in the better you do the lower the odds fall. And so with a virtually unrecoverable investment, LOL, I've gotten to work with a lot of the great top people in the world. And ya can't really ask for her career better than that if it wasn't for the constant poverty and that lull in business that might not come back? As I'm currently experiencing just that. And sometimes you can't tough it out when the money is all gone. And so if I can't reinvent myself with my facility, it's over in the next couple of months. Virtually no work for the past few years.. And certainly not any of those big jobs. Not the really big ones anymore. Because nobody cares about quality and taking the feed off the PA board seems to be adequate for this youngest generation. But it's not for the folks that demand the best. There's just a lot fewer of them because most are retired now. They're my age and older. So I still have a market but 50% of the people that once worked with me that are my age are now all dead. And they were dead slightly before or around 50. And I was supposed to be dead at 50. And then brain surgery. I feel like the daughter of Frankenstein. And I look about the same as her also when I hear really bad audio. So I look like that a lot today LOL. Crispy clear digital BS. Yuck. Rock 'n roll isn't about audio fidelity. It's about attitude. And that's why rock 'n roll can be accomplished quite well on virtually any working equipment. It could even be those PA boards but not during a PA job. And you don't start grabbing at the EQ's to tweak it like you do PA. Which all PA recording engineers seem to do? No. Ain't how it's done. And then 57 & 58's, on everything. And ya can't go wrong with that. That's really where the sound is everybody loves to hear. They'll want to hear your crispy clear nonsense. Maybe for really esoteric avant-garde stuff but that ain't rock 'n roll. I mean if you over tweak your gain on your guitar channels, BFD. The metal guitar is already distorted. What's a little more? And if you demand absolute accuracy? Become an accountant because you're in the wrong business. I never approach a recording in a clinical manner. Though I do believe in preproduction on serious projects. It's a creative process. It's not a clinical or scientific process. So we may utilize some of our clinical skills? You have to. But ya can't approach recording anything from a textbook. I don't care how many formulas and gobbledygook they present. Doesn't really apply to the real world. And that's why I'm not very enthralled by recording schools at all. They're teaching you how to build a car because they have all the right tools in which to design and build a car. And you're going to build a car in your bedroom? Or your basement, garage, what ever. That's still not an automobile factory. A recording studio isn't really a recording studio until you have multiple control rooms, multiple studios, machine room, workbench and duplication room and offices. One cannot leave out the lounge. Better have some XLR panels also in the lounge. And you can't forget the 24 input snake you'll need to get to the front yard or the backyard, for that big barbecue rock 'n roll bash your going to throw and also roll on. And that's really those 16-24 simultaneous inputs to some kind of recorder or computer. Ya see, this is never-ending. Plenty of folks do this as a hobby and something on the side. Because few people can make this a full-time living anymore today. And then you end up on a PA crew blowing out your hearing and I wouldn't do that. So I just sat in a control room where people just blathered on, on camera. Not really creatively satisfying. Unless of course you have some say in raising the bar at the major market and network levels. And ya get some creative satisfaction from that. Along with a nice regular fat paycheck. And that helps you by that old used stuff that you take months and months to restore after ya come home from work. So ya can keep chasing your dreams and your passion for what you do. What you want to do. What you have to do. Because you know what you were put on this planet to do. I mean why else am I hear?

English is great isn't it? Too bad I flunked.
Mx. Remy Ann David

YIKES!

moving right along into the 21 century here.... as of Feb, 2013 I actually hear ITB does 90% of everything perfectly well. The other 10% is all about analog processing done in the right order.

Those that know, have a clear advantage in all genre's of music. Plus, its a great line to a song.

back to you :tongue:

Ya know, Remy... for someone as adept at audio editing as yourself, it's hard to imagine that when reading your posts.. LOL.. like a paragraph or two would kill ya, M' lady?

That being said, laying within Remy's message - and it was good information when I first started reading her last post back in 1958 - are some indisputable truths... it all depends on the context in which you work.

If your day to day operations are, as she put it, mostly "studio work", then getting that top-end boutique fidelity isn't as important on an info-mercial airing on a local AM station in mono, as it is if you are recording Peter Gabriel's next album.

And, if you are able to corral even a few of those high-end clients, those who who don't even bat an eyelash at a $300 per hour studio bill (and there aren't too many of those clients around, even the big labels bulk at paying that rate anymore unless it's for someone like Sir Elton Or Macca ) ...then you can finance your own place at their billing. Is is possible? Sure, it's possible. There's always a chance that you'll get that big break, that because you have a 2" 24 track and a Neve with a full rack of UA, Urei and Focusrite gear, and that because outside of your studio window you can see a trout stream and Mt. Olympus, Eric Clapton might record his next project at your place... So yeah, theoretically it's possible...but, is it probable? No.

And as Remy mentioned, if you are gonna swim in those waters, you'd better be darned good at the servicing/maintenance end of things. Can I bias and align a multi track deck? Sure.
You had to be able to do that stuff to work in the business in those bad old days of uber fat low end and silky mid range that didn't bore a hole in your forehead..
You'd better be willing - and able - to do the required maintenance on the gear, and believe me, I did plenty of it.

Do I miss it? Not one freakin' bit. And that's where Remy and I diverge, in that I despise that stuff, I just want to get faders up and tape rolling. She thrives on it. She digs it. She loves the smell of hot solder in the morning. A day without replacing a chip or resistor, digging out the osci and aligning the azimuth on a head stack, or downright modding a channel strip to reveal the sound that she really wants, is like a day without sunshine to her... and many, many engineers just like her absolutely loved doing that stuff. I just happened to be one of the few who didn't.

I'm happiest these days when I get an idea, walk over to the PC, plug and go. I'm more of the musician/songwriter these days, and while I'll always be an engineer - my focus is on immediate musical gratification.
I want to get right to it. No firing up decks, spooling tape, powering up the desk, powering up the rack, patching the effects..."whoops, there's a bad solder point on that input, I'll have to get to that soon..."
But... there is a trade off, most certainly, because the stuff I do now is clearly not as warm as what I used to do when banging db's to + 4 on a nicely biased and aligned deck.

And if I had the "FU" money... you know, that money that isn't earmarked for anything else important like say, a mortgage, I'd probably have a go at it again. But for these days, with the budget I have, I don't see it anytime soon. And... if I do get a bug up my arse to go that way, I'll spend a few hours - and a couple hundred bucks - in an analog studio in the Cleveland Metro area and do my primary tracks there... and let that guy worry about the maintenance, and making the monthly nut to keep the lights burning. ;)

fwiw
-d.

Yeah but 50% is how you track it with the analog stuff feeding the digital converters. To lean it closer to that 90% formula. So really the ITB stuff is only 40%. But you're now looking at it that way LOL. The ITB is only 40% of that 90%. That is if you're just talking about a project, start to finish, soup to nuts? If you're just getting a multitrack hard drive then I guess your formula would be spot on? But you didn't quite specify those details Mr. perfection LOL. You left out important data. Your data is far too compressed LOL

That's MP3 you just talked about, spoken, said. Mostly Perfect, grade level 3. Now ya have to stay after school.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Oh don't get me wrong... I'm plenty happy to make my digital recordings sound as good as they can.... and to stay after school if I must.. wouldn't be the first time by a long shot. :)

I'm certainly not against stacking the deck in my favor... and I'm more than happy to use analog gear to do just that - if I can afford it... but while I may ( or may not) be able to afford those small subtle upgrades from time to time, I know for sure that I can't afford the biggies, like the Neves, API's, Fairchildes, etc. And even if I could afford it, from a business stance, I'd still have to justify it.

You know what I'm talking about, too.. how's your business these days? If you didn't already have the gear you had ( and worked hard for) could you really justify dropping 40 Large on a high end analog console? I'm not asking if you would want one.. I'm asking if you could justify it. If your client list is that extensive and well off, and your studio is clocking serious billable hours on that gear, then God Bless ya...

But you'd be in the minority, I think.

to what Donny offered,

i myself have proven to myself that analog sounds better and for myself that's all that matters. truth be told i would rather be working with a Tascam / Teac / Fostex narrow formats and a Tangent / Soundcraft than any DAW ...

at the top of this thread i said the question was difficult to quantify. the reason is on paper digital looks to be better but to the ear (mine at least) analog rules. in the best of all scenarios, 2" tape at 30 ips, analog mixer and outboard mixed to analog. That's real to reel for me.

many thoughts are presented. i agree with a lot of them. i switched to a DAW with great expectations. i labored over the tracks, used great pres and mics, worked and worked. things always sounded pretty good until i got to the mix stage where everything fell on its face. i just think that DAW is a bottleneck. even when i take stems out and run them through my old Mackie SR24 things sound better. go through a "reel console" and the whole thing just opens up.

i advocate using DAW as a glorified tape machine, capible of many tracks. set the faders at -16 and leave them there, sending the channels to as many individual out/ channels of conversion as possible and mix on the very best desk you can get / afford, using all the great analog processing you can get. i think even cheap compressors reverbs etc are better than plugs if only for the reason that one isn't forced to buy new ones or upgrade every time the computer OS or hardware becomes obsolete (which seems to be sooner than later lately). i have great sounding verbs, comps gates eqs that i have owned for 20 years now. no one can say that about plugs.

i myself prefer a great desk like the API Chris showed us or even that Trident 65 that i located. as Remy has mentioned, i believe that transformers on inputs and outputs make a huge contribution, especially if you want an aggressive rock sound without harsh artifacts. sans a desk a hybrid mixing system consisting of active summing and outboard eq is acceptable, or even more desirable. i still lean towards a desk although if you think about it thers no reason a 2" 24 track couldn't be mixed on a system like Chris's. it really the same concept just implemented in a different way

i also think that recording back to the same computer that holds the multis is an issue. i advocate at the very least to have separate high end stereo converters and to record to a separate computer if only for the ability to do SRC in analogville. if possible i would still prefer to print the mix to tape. 1/2" if at all possible but even 1/4" is better than digital imo.

the last point i would mention is a political one, a dead horse i keep beating. i firmly feel the recording industry has been diminished by the democratization of recording. cheap affordable recording equipment has done more harm than good. i said it ten years ago when the recording community could have done something to curtail the trend and i'll repeat it now. i told you so!

imo, one reason "records" were better in the past was because if a person wanted to get into the business they had to do what Remy just described, piecing together a decent console and recorders over time and with a great deal of perseverance. it wasn't a hobby for the weak hearted or some street busker with an extra few hundred bucks asking, "what's the best monitors i can buy for under $100?". it took passion and in many cases deep pockets. it was a bar to leap over. and to a point during this "golden age" of audio the bar was consistently being raised. people who owned or worked in studios and the record business were extremely talented people who weeded out the trash before the recording was initiated. it's not like that now. sure a lot of talent that deserves to be heard is getting the chance now with less expensive recording options but i wonder if they are that talented, would the cream rise to the top anyway?

awwww crap. i wrote a freakin' book.

awwww crap. i wrote a freakin' book.

well, LOL, at least it was a good book.

Look... I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm against analog... to the contrary, I love it. It's what I was taught on, it's what I came up using, and for years I swam in those waters... occasionally I still do as a hired gun when going into a studio that happens to be analog at its heart, and it's always fun to sit at a real console and patch in compressors that you can also cook your dinner on...

But it takes deep pockets to do it right.

Kurt and I will have to agree to disagree regarding entry level analog gear. Personally, I'd rather mix on a DAW system than through a Tapco to a Fostex, and my Lexicon Pantheon plug sounds infinitely better to me than the Yamaha SPX90 I had in 1985.

You mentioned, in one of your posts, how you walked into a Trident-based studio once and suddenly 'saw the light"... a big assed lightbulb went off over your head when you heard what you heard... your quote, to paraphrase was "ahh..now I get it..." and it's totally true. I recall feeling the same thing the first time I sat down to cook on a Neotek Elan... and while it wasn't a Neve, it was heads and tails above the Tascam I had grown used to using at home.

I will absolutely agree with you though, in regard to the digital age making recording more accessible to those who probably shouldn't be in it... and while I don't want to sound like a snob, because I think that anyone who wants to get into recording should absolutely do so if they wish, and we all have to start somewhere, but there is no doubt that this easy and affordable access has its downside, and the internet is binary proof of that with the multitude of outright bad recordings available.. not "fair", not "okay", but downright bad. Even pretty good songs are tough to listen to when having to battle through bad mixes and sonics to do so.
Yeah, sure, we can hear through bad mixes to listen for a well written song, but I doubt that anyone of us really wants to.

And I'd still like to hunt down the original amateur "mastering engineer" who decided that nothing else matters in mastering but to make it loud... I want to find him, and I want to beat him to death with an LA2.

I imagine that graphic artists must feel the same way these days with progs like Photoshop and Corel Draw.
Just because people have the ability to design and create doesn't mean that what they design and create is any good.

;)
-d.

This one aught to get a buzz.

Now that I've actually done hybrid to this level, I definitely hear the differences and know if I had a rack of API 5500 and an array of pre's would be the pinnacle moment of sheer awesome. I don't believe anyone here, better than I can say this through actual hands on experience like me today. How many of us have actually built and used something like what I have. There is no doubt hybrid audio is my choice but, who cares. This may be my last post where I actually share my discovery on all this. The whole process makes mixing music truly a blast.

Through having this system I have learned a few things that I've wanted to share.

My ears have improved because of this experience, so who cares
ITB mixes sound like ITB mixes, so who cares
We all get used to what we are exposed to, so who cares.
Everything is subjective and music is in the eyes of the beholder.So none of any of what I just discovered matters. Who cares.
It only matter to the beholder. Its really about the song.

Two year ago I set a goal to build a great hybrid system, then to share my personal experience with the members and world. I made deals with people and hand picked all the products I have been paying attention to since running RO for 14 years. I think I made all the right choices and built what I think is the worlds finest hybrid audio system today.

I am an audio file and have been chasing sonic excellence since I was a kid. I often wonder why I became a musician because I just love sound engineering. But I'm also an excellent musician who loves performing and, a guitar was less expensive and I made money every week. So I chose that world and had an 18 year tour.

In 1992 I won a music contest and the next thing I was in the recording business.

The one big regret I have in this life, I wish I started all this a long time ago and would have had parents that could have helped me financially. Its always been a struggle to survive, which has kept me for being relaxed and able to write and record my own music and setup a great studio.

Now, finally at 56 years, I believe I have pieced together something truly world class sounding. What I have here is truly amazing and to be cherished by anyone. Some nights I just sit here and dream. I'm blessed to have had this opportunity to discover audio sounding this great in my own studio. Wow. If only I was 25 again and this industry was like it used to be.

Now that I've accomplished this, I feel done and have closure. The sad part now is, after all this work and learning, I'm confused with the current state of our industry and people so I don't know if its worth it anymore. The last month I've been seriously thinking about selling the works and buying a bigger boat and getting out of this business for good. Its not fun anymore.

A StudioLive 32.4.2 and a laptop with a big monitor may be all I ever need to do it like everyone else. $5000, done.

Its really about the song.

audiokid, post: 401162 wrote:

A [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.presonus…"]StudioLive[/]="http://www.presonus…"]StudioLive[/] 32.4.2 and a laptop with a big monitor may be all I need to do it like everyone else.

isn't that what i said just a few weeks ago? :)

but this brings up a question i have. does mixing from DAW into a digital mixer present the same bottleneck or does it alleviate the problem. i have never had the opportunity to mix through a digital desk and it's something i have been curious about for some time. if the answer is using a digital desk opens things up then perhaps a StudioLive is the answer, at least for me.

Donny, i agree to disagree. maybe my experience is different from yours but i will say i have made recordings on a Fostex G16 and a Tascam 38 mixed through Soundcraft and Fostex /Yamaha mixers that sound way better than anything i can get out of my DAW. Even stuff recorded to Black Face ADAT and mixed through a Mackie sounds better. I just can't squeeze any mojo out of DAWs. it's frustrating.

Actually, I think you are on the cutting edge of the next big thing, and I've said so before.

It's the area between the $1500 digital rig and the $500,000 analog room... and that's a big space in there. It needs to be filled by something, and I think you are onto what that next "something" is.

The real bottom line is how you feel about it. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. You don't need to prove anything to anyone. If you are happy with what you have done, then that's all that matters. Trying to educate others as to your way of thinking is not only futile, but pointless. It doesn't matter what others think... it just doesn't matter.

And if you are having second thoughts about it, then you need to remember what your plan was....revisit the reasons why you chose to do what you did. Stick by your guns.

At the end of the day, if you are happy, nothing else matters.

You had a goal, a dream. You set out to make it happen and you did it. Be proud of that, for far too few who dream... actually do.

fwiw
-d.

audiokid, post: 401162 wrote: I believe I have pieced together something truly world class sounding. What I have here is truly amazing and to be cherished by anyone. Some nights I just sit here and dream. I'm blessed to have had this opportunity to discover audio sounding this great in my own studio. Wow. If only I was 25 again and this industry was like it used to be.

Now that I've accomplished this, I feel done and have closure. The sad part now is, after all this work and learning, I'm confused with the current state of our industry and people so I don't know if its worth it anymore.

location, location, location. it's difficult to run a media based business in "Bailing Wire, Nebraska"

i am sure what ever modicum of "success" i achieved when i was running my studio was much attributed to my being in a decent location, convenient to a large community of working musicians. as the club work dried up for the musicians, so did my opportunities as a studio operator.

LA, Nashville, New York ... pick one (hint: Nashville is where most live sessions with real musicians are being done. it's pretty country too). if i were in your shoes Chris i would be headed south.

Thanks guys.

Donny, the goal was for myself and for fun. Part of this fun was to see who was zooming who in this industry. It was fun and now I know a lot more than I thought I did.
There is so much misinformation and BS being spread in this industry. Forums are the worst and part of this obsession came from running RO.

Our key members have made RO one of the best recording sites ever. We really don't put up with BS here and we should all be proud of our circle. You all are part of this history. RO will always be the first of its kind. I hope we keep it just like this for years to come. I don't know how much longer I can do this, but, its been a learning experience indeed.

I did the hybrid dance to prove something to myself about combining digital and analog together in an order.

The Dangerous ST was the pinnacle piece for me. It connected everything the right way and completed the journey from one DAW to the other. This really is the secret.
All I need now is great music. But, where is it and will I even make money at this like before. And do I want to sit in a studio for that last half of my life anymore. I dunno.
When I think about being in nature and walking away from all this BS, it looks pretty promising. I'm at cross roads now. I'm really struggling with it all.

Kurt, I owned a 24.3.2 and sold it. But, I am getting a 32.4.2 this summer.

Digital consoles sound like Pro Tools mush. PT is one big joke to me, sorry you all, but it has a sound that isn't any better than a StudioLive. Its a no brainer. I mean, if what I have doesn't matter, where does this leave Pro Tools and all those ITB users. Seriously.
I don't hear a bit of difference between Pro Tools and a StudioLive console. Most people use Pro Tools because someone else did and because it works better because it is designed to be a turn key product for those who don't want to think as hard setting something up. Its designed to sell plug-ins to you. Thats what its all about. Its not about sound quality. They keep patching it because people are complaining.
The computer and DAW world has caught up with it all. So part of my discovery has been a lot more than just building a world class system. Its been about discovering.

So what I have been saying a along, if you are ITB, don't waste your money on the mid level run a round.
I see this this entire rat race like this. If I was going to do it again we fall into three groups and those products are basically these.

Low end - we know what that is.
Mid level - StudioLive done. There is of course all the DAW's like Reaper, Sonar, Pro Tools, Samplitude, but StudioLive is the whole works and you are done.
High end - SSL, Neve, API, SPL, Dangerous . I've missed a few but those are the ones to me.

Mastering and the best DAW is Sequoia 12 by a long shot
For electronic music Ableton, FL

To summarize. I don't care what studio you are, if you have "rich acoustic information" analog ( hybrid) is the only way to my ears.
If you have a budget of $50 grand or less. StudioLive is what I would do.

If you are a label studio, then you need the main stream SSL so the circle of engineers can walk in and cook.

i have to agree with you Chris. it takes at least 50 gs to break out into the world of "real" recording ... otherwise stay with a StudioLive or a itb set up but just don't expect the same results as you would get with a hybrid or console based system.

on the other hand there are some fantastic chances to snatch up older tape machines and consoles on the cheap. this is what Gabe Roth did at DapTone ... he records to an Ampex 440 8 track (a horrible running machine, those transports were never intended to handle 1 inch tape) or a 1 in 16 track Tascam (ha ha Donny) through a Trident 65. those cats make some great records. just be handy with a soldering iron or be where you can find a tech. there's a lot of maintenance with these older devices. it takes a "Mx.Remy" to keep a studio like that running.

look at what Jeff Lynne does ... Neve in SSL out Nuemann 87s and Sennheiser 421's for the most part. That's the ELO, Wilburys, Petty sound ...

check out Blackbird Studios in Nashville .. Steve McBride .. Vance Powell .. McBride likes APIs ...

[="http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/"]BLACKBIRD STUDIO[/]="http://www.blackbir…"]BLACKBIRD STUDIO[/]
[URL=http://www.blackbirdstudio]www.blackbirdstudio.com/

Blackbird Studio: The ultimate marriage between cutting edge and vintage.

Kurt Foster, post: 401166 wrote: does mixing from DAW into a digital mixer present the same bottleneck or does it alleviate the problem.

No different Kurt, its still crunched and crammed. From all my test, the magic and space happens pushing stems out to big headroom analog and capturing the sum on 2 two track. I'm betting 2' tape would be the ultimate glue but you still need to get it AD so to just make life simple, a second DAW ready at 44.1 pretty much makes it gold.

I'm thinking, when I get the 32.4.2 I'm going to get a passive summer (that $200 thingy or a Folcrom) and use my Great River MP 2NV for vibe or the or Millennia M-2b ( beautiful silky preamp) for cleaner tones and do a comparison on what I have now.
I'm betting this is the next best thing before $50 grand ever spent. I bet we will all be shocked on what this will sound like. Stay tuned for that one. :)

Something I mentioned a few times and think I'm onto something here. Mid level ITB ( Pro tools whatever, ) the bottom and top end sound crammed to me, awkward.
Where I think the StudioLive is the dark horse, I noticed the bottom end on it lacking ( not there). But you know what, you get better mixes from gear that doesn't have bottom end mush over something that doesn't do it well but goes down low. Know what I mean?

The SL sounds like a natural HPF so its easier not to turn bass into mush. If we summed OTB with one of those, I bet it would sound pretty nice.

Just another curve being tossed in here.

i have a feeling you will learn that a passive summing network isn't as good as an active one.

i really think that changing levels itb creates problems. i think the way to go is to set it and forget it and then do level changes on the sum mixer. this is why the big boys are using SSLs and APIs with automation for mix. a console with automation would be the cats meow.

i don't think it will be near as good as my beast here, but it might be pretty descent, especially for that price.

I hear some DAW's do the calculation better than others. Its why I chose Sequoia. When I used Pro Tools, I noticed the impact of level changes. But I think most DAW's are better at this now, compared to 5 years ago. I have Sonar here as well but couldn't use it because it is so noisy compared. Its a very cool DAW but things don't sound as clear. Reaper on the other hand, sounds tight like Sequoia but it lacks in functionality. Ableton is a very solid DAW but weak for acoustic music.

I try real hard not to touch levels ITB. Set the levels close from the start. I push and pull levels OTB. Mixes sounds bigger to me that way. Tighter, better center. Another reason why the second DAW is so awesome.

on the other hand there are some fantastic chances to snatch up older tape machines and consoles on the cheap. this is what Gabe Roth did at DapTone ... he records to an Ampex 440 8 track (a horrible running machine, those transports were never intended to handle 1 inch tape) or a 1 in 16 track Tascam (ha ha Donny) through a [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.trident-…"]Trident[/]="http://www.trident-…"]Trident[/] 65. those cats make some great records. just be handy with a soldering iron or be where you can find a tech. there's a lot of maintenance with these older devices. it takes a "Mx.Remy" to keep a studio like that running.

LOL.. Ha Ha your bad old self, ;) I actually owned and really liked the Tascam MS 16. 1" 16 track was awesome. Another deck I liked a lot and owned (and still have, BTW) was a Tascam 48 1/2" 8 track. That puppy was warm.

I was referring more to the B series Fostex and the old Teac stuff where you were forced to cram 16/24 tracks onto half inch tape or 8 tracks onto 1/4". And a Trident 65 ain't no Tapco. ;)

Chris... I think you should stick it out for awhile. Don't get me wrong, I think that nature is great. I'm a fly fisherman, it's become almost a religion for me, and I love walking streams in search of the wiley brown trout... but I can tell you that there are more than a few days where I regret selling it all back in 2004 and walking away. Yeah, I have a half-assed home studio these days, but there are times where I miss walking into my big control room, acoustically tuned, console winking at me, sayin' "c'mon Donny... let's cook.."

I agree with your take on digital consoles. I've worked on more than a few, and back in the late 90's I owned two Yamaha 02R's (strapped together) and while it was really nice to have that surgical EQ, built in GR and gating, and total recall of all parameters and flying faders, it did indeed always sound "digital" to me. It never had the warmth that my Neotek had. That being said, it was a lot easier to close one session and open another by simply hitting "recall" and not having to deal with nulling the desk and starting over using console charts where every setting had been written down by hand.... LOL.... which could take as long as a half hour in between sessions... from a business aspect, it saved me a lot of time, which meant I could get more clients in during a typical day - almost back to back if I was really busy, with no down time in between those sessions.

I think that digital consoles - and digital recording technology in general - has come a long way since then, I was on the forefront of that technology and there was still a lot to be improved in those days, and I think they have improved quite a bit. But I don't think that even the nicest digital desk is ever going to sound as good as a Neve or SSL.... even in terms of emulation. But then again, I didn't pay $90 large for those Yammies either, and the clients I had would have never been able to afford the upswing in rates that I would have had to implement to compensate for having that high caliber gear.

What You are doing is a combination of both sciences, and in my opinion, it's where the craft is headed. You just happened to get there before the rest of us. I wouldn't knock what you are doing, because as I've said, I think it's what the next big thing will be. I imagine one of these days seeing you on the cover of Mix under the heading "Hybrid - the next big thing". ;)

fwiw
-d.

Chris I think you have one of the most incredible esoteric systems I know? It does truly sound lovely. But we can't get out of this business. None of us can. Even when the business is gone we're still the business. Count yourself lucky Chris, you are part of the end of the Golden age of recording. You've had the opportunity to get your hands on and use real good stuff. Your Canadian folks have some fabulous broadcast facilities that really go quite a bit beyond many of these privately held corporate stations down here. I'll never forget going to that CBC Center in Winnipeg, Manitoba. OMFG! Two TV stations and I think it was five radio stations all in one building. And back in 1970, I had already been to WXYZ radio and TV which was an ABC O & O (owned and operated by ABC). Didn't even come close to this Winnipeg, Manitoba, CBC facility. And the equipment! No American station could hold a candle to the CBC facility. And to this day, it was one of the most incredible facilities next to perhaps 30 Rockefeller Center? And that wasn't even a big city in Winnipeg. And I found out that the CBC engineers had to pass a test much more rigorous and involved than the FCC First Class Radio Telephone License requirements of the other major television networks and stations down here.

So I really think you should trot yourself over to one of those wonderful CBC facilities and give them your resume? And now you folks also have commercial broadcast facilities that are also not government run. And I think they could use a guy like you? They really strive for the highest quality. Not like American stations at all. I was envious. But Americans can't get jobs in Canada. No problems with Canadians getting jobs in the US however. So stop down in Seattle? Broadcasts has a lot to offer to audio engineers. Especially good ones. Because there aren't many of them LOL. So what if the show is nothing but talking heads, it's a paycheck and a good one. And I think would give you much fulfillment.

And you'd learn a different side of audio unlike anything you have ever experienced before. Broadcast is quite a different world than the studio. And it will make you even better, real fast. So while you say you're not a professional engineer? You're really lying LOL. You are a professional engineer. So stop telling everybody you're not. You've got great ears and you know what you're doing. And that's two things more than a lot of engineers I know. You've gotten yourself up to speed. It's been an incredible journey. You're ready. Man... you are ready. You're already better than most broadcast engineers will ever be. And you're likely to meet some very important and influential people. Our business is all about networking whether it's in television or just with each other. And you got a whole lot of references here from all whole lot of very professional audio engineers. And this incredible website. You are very important part of Canada because of this site. And it's also because of your Canadian Constitution that I really have no desire to really be involved much at all with any of these other semi-similar American sites, to yours. I know I've been occasionally inappropriate and distasteful. And that sometimes embarrasses me to be an American. Canadians are better people. I have frequently wished I had been Canadian? But I'm not. I'm just a dumb ass American with a big mouth. But then... you already knew that LOL.

You haven't finished what you've been put on this planet to do.
Mx. Remy Ann David

That's pretty cool hearing you talk to me like that, I don't think deserve that but thanks for the kind words diddlydoo

I only state what I hear and observe and Chris, you are a 100% pro audio guy. And in many ways, of course, you are miles ahead of me. I don't do this for a hobby. Though it's sort of that right now without any work. And just like yourself, I'm also thinking about calling it quits? Because most of the young pop music I'm hearing today, which are actually being played and performed by young musicians and singers, is completely underwhelming, melody lacking, people performing and trying to look cool with a song you can't remember 10 seconds after it's done. Because I really don't hear anyone playing anything with any actual hooks anymore? They appear to be cohesive. They look cohesive. And the music is empty without substance. And I don't want to record any of that crap. And where with that attitude of mine, Nashville at least still turns out melodies you can remember. And with which you find yourself whistling or singing it while mowing your lawn LOL. And that to me says music. It doesn't say Pro tools or I look cool while I play. That's the crap you do to baffle people into thinking you must have some kind of talent. Because it's more important to look cool than to play a real song. Oh but everybody likes those songs. Because inside they too are just as empty as the music or lack thereof. And that would appeal to empty people. Which is most of the populace. So if you're just in this for the money? Do that. If you're in this for the art? Then you create it. And if money happens? Whoopi! You win! Otherwise you just go on creating art because that's what passion in what you do is all about. For some it's just about the money. And as a result, they're rich. The rest of us are just starving artists.

I think I need one of those Elvis paintings on black velvet? Shouldn't it be blue suede though? Could never figure that one out? I think they need to remix those paintings? After all we can create digital blue suede. And I guess you could find black velvet fabric more cheaply than blue velvet fabric? But this is almost as bad as when they were colorizing black-and-white movies. Which I thought was simply awesome to do to some. But when the idiots at the Hollywood postproduction facility made " Old Blue Eyes ", with brown eyes, it was sort of received like the assassination of President Kennedy. How could all Hollywood postproduction guy not know that Frank Sonata had blue lies? One that drinks too much that's who. Or maybe just plain retarded? They do have to hire the handicap you know, it's the law. I'm actually blessed with some blue/green color blindness. Real tough to read those 5600 ohm or 6500 ohm resistors because they look the same to me. Go to Radio Shaft and give yourself a color blindness test LOL. The results might actually change the way you go about mixing?

It was known that Bob Clearmountain, a simply fabulous and legendary engineer, stuck toilet paper in front of his tweeters. I took a little more aesthetically pleasing way of doing that by simply growing my hair out over my ears. And it took down just the right db or so at the highest sonic regions of our perception to make a vast improvement on my mixes. I didn't need no stinkin' used toilet paper. Yet the same results are achieved by approaching this situation from two entirely different directions and thought processes. Which one is better? Answer: either one.

When you see a fork in the road, take it. (Yogi Berra, describing the directions to his home) he didn't specify which direction to take in the fork. Because either way gets you there. And he didn't intentionally say it to be funny. It was just his engineering technique through his speech syntax. And where'd you go to the dirty bookstore and purchase a magazine or a toy, you have to pay a different sin tax. Both sound the same. Look fairly similar. And are in fact not talking about the same thing at all. And music engineering is very much like that. It's the cadence, the flow, the cohesive performance of a real-time group. It's not about Bobby playing drums and Johnny playing guitar and Betty playing bass. It's the group that's playing together. You're not there to listen to what instrument or person. But instead to take it in as a whole. And where your DSP processor may be easily able to isolate individual instruments and vocals. Where your DSP processor is what we call most commonly, gray matter. It's that gizmo that sits on top of your 5 foot rack. And it is generally the input device to everything within that rack. Other folks just call it a brain.

Brain? What is brain!? (When Spock lost his brain) I haven't found mine yet.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Check out Arlyn Studios. Austin Tex. They have a picture of the new console being built for their room and it is the marriage being talked about there. API and Neve in the same frame.

audiokid, post: 401165 wrote: Its really about the song.

Exactly.

With the exception of Arlyn's, my custom Neve along with 16-20 API 312 preamps, mostly the same microphone roster, compressors, limiters, yup, I'm about the same. Not a whole lot of difference there except I don't have an SSL 4000, or any kind of studio facilities these days. Though for a little while, I had 2 Neve's and 2 Auditronics 501's, Auditronics 110-8, 24 input commercial production console in the voiceover studio. All gone today LOL.

Just one Neve and some Auditronics 501 modules is all that is left. Those and a couple of stereo, Mono & 4 track Scully's & Ampex' AG 354 and a few 3340's/3440, Op-Amp Labs 10 x 8 x 2 that all has to go. That and the vintage huge shortwave receiver, 1930s Philco table radio with the first Armstrong FM band at 49 MHz. Everything has to go boo-hoo. And other old collectibles I've acquired through the years spanning over 40 years. No place to store it anymore since there are no more financial resources to keep my collectibles dammit all. This sucks. And thankfully the warmer weather is starting to roll around that will have to go before the end of spring.

And so it goes.
Mx. Remy Ann David

So would a vintage Trident 65 console get me that quality old school sound? Even when using it with my daw as the tracking device instead of tape?

i really like the Trident 65 although you need to be careful because the build quality on these old beasts was a little sloppy. just be sure you get one that has been recapped and gone through recently ... those are pretty old mixers and most of them out there have seen a lot of miles.

the 65's aren't the best Tridents made but they are pretty darn good for a home studio. i would go with one (if it's in good shape) any day over the newer studio projects versions. they have a great eq and would be perfect for a home DAW rig. the one that's [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]for sale here[/]="http://recording.or…"]for sale here[/] is a good deal.

I don't do much automation, I leave it up to the band to control their dynamics, that being said I wouldn't mind having a non automated board because it would still work well for me and not screw up my workflow, plus automated boards are way.. out of my price range which is $3000-$7000 max. However, would I get better character out of a Neve 8816 summing box? I do love the neve sound, but most summing box's dont have EQ which I also dont use much eq either but when I do id love to use analog eq.

I'm with you on automation and I don't use that near as much as I used to. Automation faders are great for recall though but I don't care. Just more stuff to go on the blink.

FWIW, When I was hunting for summing boxes the Neve was an obvious choice until I read more into everything. The flavour doesn't come from the summing box, or at least it shouldn't. The Neos is the top dog in that department but costly. Don't expect the summing amp to give it to you. Its purpose is about voltage, headroom and summing channels. This is where people are confused or mislead by the mislead.. If I want a Neve, I add Neve pres and EQ's. If I want SSL, same, If I want API, simple. Add the Pre's and EQ's for flavour and vibe and then... use BIG RAIL power from the summing amp to drive it all home!
Its the pres and EQ that you are looking for after you invest in a high headroom, big volt hybrid summing amp.

You need a lot more money to do it the way you are thinking or dreaming about so, I would continue looking for a console as this is the next best way and simple. You will find one indeed.

audiokid, post: 401532 wrote:

You need a lot more money to do it the way you are thinking or dreaming about so, I would continue looking for a console as this is the next best way and simple. You will find one indeed.

Thank you for the eye opener, much appreciated.
Besides the trident 65 boards, what other boards should I keep an eye out for?

Headroom for starters, but... Your budget is $6500?

Check this out:

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://vintageking…"]Used & Vintage Consoles - Vintage King Audio[/]="http://vintageking…"]Used & Vintage Consoles - Vintage King Audio[/]

audiokid, post: 401537 wrote: Headroom for starters. Your budget is $6500?

I would love to get away with $4000 but I'm not one to cut corners, so what's the price point to
hit that brings you into a truly professional sounding console? I'm willing to save my pennies.

I have no idea, its a crap shoot IMHO but if the dealer stands behind something, I would feel safer:

Check this out:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://vintageking…"]Trident Series 24 28-Channel Console (Vintage) - Used + Vintage Consoles - Used + Vintage Consoles & Mixers - Used + Vintage - Vintage King Audio[/]="http://vintageking…"]Trident Series 24 28-Channel Console (Vintage) - Used + Vintage Consoles - Used + Vintage Consoles & Mixers - Used + Vintage - Vintage King Audio[/]

I rather liked that Neve 5300. It's almost identical to mine but I've got 12 additional inputs on my frame for a total of 36 were the first 24 are the 3115's, which are the all discrete transistor versions of the IC chip based 33115's. We had a very similar NBC-TV network console with 32, 33114's in it. NBC thought I would want that one. I didn't. I wanted the old more worn out all transistorized one. So I really wonder how much they're asking for that 5300? It's got the identical equalizers to mine. Same transformers in and out. Except it's all IC chip blah. No wonder they can't move it? It's sort of a Neve but it's not.

I disagree with you Chris. There is nothing wrong with the summing buses on API's or, Neve's. Though you might believe your Neo-simple high voltage rail box can't be beat but it is daily by those folks working on SSL 9000's, old API's, old Neve's and it doesn't keep them from having success or great sounding mixes. It's OK if the summing box has color and is skewed one way to obtain that. And there is no high voltage rails in those API, Neve & SSL's. So you are blowing smoke Chris. You are merely describing your personal experience with what you have and what you have chosen. And it's not the power rails is that makes the difference. It's the engineer that makes the difference. You know that. So it's great that you're happy with the superior performance that you can obtain from their high voltage rail box. And it's what you need to get your sound with. It's not the be-all end-all I'm sorry to say. It's not going to do little Bobby any good that doesn't know the difference between an XLR and a sample rate. And it's only your system that is an acceptable system to use. It's not. It's just a another system that works for you. And of course your advertising support in the ads that they purchase and the sales pitch in which you provide for. It's of course all relevant but it's not. You might need it where others don't? You demand that a piece of equipment do something a certain way and you have skewed your purchase decisions in that direction. That's as personal as underwear. And it's totally 100% subjective, specifications, power rails or not. It may however be great for a hybrid studios such as yours. And as you indicated, he might be better off with a mid range console? And that I certainly agree with.

That Midas Venice console might be something that you want to consider? I have used those on occasion for both PA and that other folks home studios. I mixed an entire album on one of those and rather liked its sound. Push any summing network too hard and it will crap out. Perhaps yours won't? But it won't crap out if you don't push it too hard. Which really isn't necessary to do at all.

Not only do I disagree with you on the summing bus stuff but on occasion, instead of taking my 3115's or, API 312's, directly into the multitrack machine, it seems like it needed more mojo? So then I would take that signal and pass it through the entire console and multiple mixing buses to get to the four track master output buses. Putting that microphone preamp through more than 4-5 more amplifications stages double amounts of transformers just to get a sound. And then it's still all gets mixed down through the analog desk yet again. So double all the things that were already doubled and then double that s'more a few times over. Because when you want color... you want color. And it doesn't matter from what stage or item you get that color from. Whether it's from a single preamp or everything going through multiple mixing buses. This is not a clinical nor scientific procedure that we do. It is 100% art and that is 100% subjective to the person creating it and to those enjoying it. And it has nothing to do with high-powered summing rails that provide no coloration of their own. I really wish you would get off that kick? You've come so far already. And you know I'm not leading you astray and I'm not saying this to cause trouble. To each their own. There is no best. What's one man's best is another man's garbage. Or something like that LOL? Something you might consider to be an inverse rule of quality? Others like it. I consider you a professional engineer so please don't make me a liar. I might care more about it if I was strictly doing fine arts recordings? I'm not doing that much anymore. Been there. Done that. Got two major award nominations for that. And everybody here that's under the age of us is generally inquiring about good old-fashioned home-cooked rock 'n roll on a budget of nothing. So they have to learn how to get what they can out of the equipment that they have that they can afford. And it ain't what you and I got.

There's a lot of guys that are working completely ITB with digital summing and I've heard some pretty stellar things come from those guys. So as a professional, while I don't necessarily use the same stuff or do the same thing, I like some of those Pro-Tooled around with recordings and mixes. They work. They do what they're supposed to do. They make money. They are professional tools. And many fine professionals work only in that manner, ITB. They're not bitching. They're making money. They have no need or desire to change to a hybrid based system. And I respect that from any other Professional in my field. That doesn't mean that I want to do the same thing the same way even though some of it has sounded stellar, awe-inspiring, all that. It's very cool, very slick sounding.

So while many of us have our preferences for analog summing, I've worked on digital consoles so big deal? No it's not the same but it's still professional nevertheless. And in the hands of a professional good results are obtained. Professional results are obtained. Moneymaking results are obtained in spite of the fact it's not analog summation and there are no high voltage rails involved. And that's a workflow for which is very personal for each individual. You might have the better mousetrap? You might know the better way to do it? And you might have to tell somebody it will require $40,000 to obtain the same thing as yours? And that's not really very realistic now is it? I mean I love your enthusiasm your excitement your passion. And that makes for about 99% of what we do. We wouldn't do this if it didn't excite us each and every time we do it. Sometimes it's even better than making love to the same person for years? Because you are creator. You are godlike. You are to be worshiped. And that's the basis for hiring of freelance engineer of your own choosing. You don't tell George Massenburg what equipment to use nor Bruce nor Elliot nor any of those folks. And you should not care what they use. You only care that you get them and what they bring to the table for you. And it ain't equipment. It's them. It's what they do on whatever it is they do it upon. Bob Clearmountain prefers his SSL 4000 E, over anything else. Why when ya can easily afford your system? Yours is so much better sounding than that 1978 SSL 4000 he has, you better set him straight. And tell him, his wife makes lousy converters. I mean who the heck would want an Apogee since it can only be used with one of those bad Apples? So Chris pop a pill and relax already will ya?

I mean a passive mixing bus with your choice of summing and output amplifiers utilizing a 500 series rack with an assortment of modules and a passive switcher, I think, would be a more progressive way to go? Then you can get that beautiful neutral sounding amplifier by whomever you want that would be color of free. Or you can choose the API? Or you could choose the Neve? Or you could choose the Dean Jensen 990? And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that concept from putting color into your mixing bus if the color wasn't there to begin with from the Mackie or the Behringer in which it was recorded upon? So while I agree with you that the most important part is on the front end going in, that presumes you have those preamps available to you. But if you can't afford that API or Neve preamp, you'll get that sound and that mixing box if you use the API 325 or the Neve 3415/1272. Which is perfectly viable at the voltages at which they work. And it still provides for greater than +24 db out and all the headroom that goes with that. It doesn't have to be high voltage rails. That's your choice. It's not everyone's choice. They can't afford your choices. But a pair of API 325 cards or a pair of Neve 3415's will only set you back under $600. Add $100 for the parts and pieces necessary to complete the summing box. And then a power supply with enough current to do the job. It ain't the voltage at the output. It's the current. Sure it has to run up to +10 V and any of those Operational Amplifiers can swing that. So we get it Chris we get it. I want the current drive capability. You want the voltage drive capability. Which one is right? It's whatever sounds right that's the right one. We don't listen to voltage we listen to the equipment. And we picked our equipment by the sound we know it delivers. Only some folks listen with their eyes. Don't be one of those people. You're better than that. You know what to listen for and you found what you were listening for. It's a good formula no doubt. I'm almost envious of your system but I'm not. It's not the way I like to work or my workflow. So we are all just offering up different suggestions here that can be taken for what they are and from who they come from. All of which are professional. There is no one best way and you know that to be true. At least you should know that? I'm actually looking at other digital mixers to replace my TA-SCAM DM 24 digital mixer that blew up? And that Neve will soon likely go away? And if I'm going to go hybrid? You can bet your ass I'll do it with a 500 series rack and modules. And my own home built passive summing mixer. I've done this before and I'll do it again. Though this time it might be a lot more fun selecting and switching modules? Because I only believe in equipment with color. I do not believe in equipment that is marketed as color free, neutral, transparent. Those words of marketing don't mean a damn to me because I come from a marketing and advertising background as well. I just listen for what I want and it's usually very colorful just like me.

I'm rather a plain Jane in bed however LOL. And they say a girl never tells. Though I've never gone to bed with a person with some color? Go figure?

I don't want one from just column A, B or, C. I want them all. And I want it cheap.
Mx. Remy Ann David

do you guys / gals / people of all persuasions ever check out (Dead Link Removed)

i'm not real sure that the prices are realistic but it's a good way to keep a pulse on what's available in the marketplace.

(Dead Link Removed)

I looked at both of those consoles. That API 6204 is only asking $1000 less than a brand-new 1608. So if you're going to spend $48,000 for a used one ya might as well spend $49,000 on a new one?

The Neve is also overpriced. Apparently it also has some problems? And it's an IC chip Neve which ain't exactly a Neve. It looks like one. It's got the same transformers. It's got the same EQ design. Just none of the real circuitry and that one's too expensive also. Both good to drool over no doubt. And only the Neve is capable as a full-blown 24 track mix console. The API is a fudge of 16 and tape returns. So you can get some of your analog mix done almost all right on that LOL. Just put everything you don't need to EQ into the tape returns.

Hey, I cut my teeth on an 24 x 16 x 24 API. And while I also owned 8 API 550 original EQ's of my own, I'm not a big fan of their proportional Q. It's like an octave wide at +2 DB but it's a notch filter of like one third octave at +15 DB. And it's not reciprocal meaning you cannot undo what you did. So while I started using 550's when I was 17, I really don't miss that EQ all that much. And where I wanted to have and/or use EQ with an API 560 graphic, I've actually never used one of those? But as far as I remember... that's all KOOSTER McAllister had in his API? 560's. And I sure as hell miss my Sphere with those 12 graphic EQ's and their quasi-parametric, ferrite core inductor, program EQ's. Almost impossible to beat. Simply stunning sounding and oh so useful. I mean who else provides for nine frequency band controls from three or four knobs? No one that's who not even SSL. But the Neve sounds so nice, I really can't complain about those 1073 very limited basic equalizers. And where I might need some forensic EQ, I've had my Orban parametric/graphic equalizers. Quite nice actually. And all of this stuff is high headroom stuff that can be loaded down to 600 ohms no problem.

A Midas, Venice, will get you off and running with a good sounding, rugged and versatile desk leaving you some extra bucks for other important peripherals. At least that's portable. So it provides for extra options outside the home base studio. I might suggest a used Auditronics 110-8? But you need a truck to carry that and a couple of big burly guys. And he'll be performing constant maintenance on a super old console if you get an old console. At least a Midas Venice, is still in production I believe? And if not? It only recently went out of production perhaps with the purchase by Beringer? So there were still will be plenty of parts availabilities for it. You run a risk of getting an old console that might use 4136/TLO-75's? And the 4136 sounds like crap and the 75's are no longer made, and no longer available and there are no substitutes for that pin out scheme. And that would require massive modifications and retrofitting or crappy 4136's from 1976, ugh.

So ya have to make certain anything that you purchase used, that the parts inside are still available? And that would require a schematic and parts lists you would need to look over and investigate the availability of replacement parts. And you could end up with a console where there might not even be room for a retrofit part? Not everything always has ample clearance. And while I really loved my Sphere, miss it dearly, I'm rather glad it's gone. Because it had a boatload of those quad op amps that were upgraded from 4136's to those TLOh?-75's. At least those were only on the effects sends. But there were eight effects sends with every channel strip. And each strip required a pair of those 75's across all 32 inputs and then some. And retrofitting would have been a nightmare and probably take me at least a year to accomplish? And then what do you get? TLO-74's which have a completely different pin out. Any meaning that for each one of those, you have to come up with a specialty custom adapter on your own. And that's mindnumbing laborious BS to go through.

So while you sort through all of your decisions remember that not all parts that went into the vintage pieces are necessarily available anymore? I know that with my Neve, the pair of output transistors on every op amp output, there was only one American made replacement transistor available. The corresponding opposite transistor is not available in the USA. And back in 1996, the only place to obtain those other transistors was in the UK. And I'm not even sure they're available anymore? Though I imagine they must be? They might not be? And I've got to replace at least 32 of those pairs of those transistors oh oh? There is an American transistor that comes close but not exactly. Would probably work fine? But I can't be sure until I try one? And maybe it's one of those things I could just pull some wool over someone's eyes and they would never know until they went to replace them, themselves LOL.

Purchasing used equipment is a risky proposition. That's all I've ever bought. I've only purchased a few things new like the last 24 track machine which cost over $15,000. And I think I sold it for half that? Yeah... half. The DA-88's also cost over $15,000. Today that system is worth about $800. And I've found that the rotating heads don't last much more than 850 hours? An analog head will last 3000-5000 hours or more. Both cost well over $600 each and more to replace. With DA-88's that means three machines. The analog machine only had three heads. But each one costs in excess of $1500. You can find used versions with plenty of life left on them for about half as much. And when they start to show signs of wear, you can even refurbish a.k.a. re-lap them 3 or 4 times over before they've had it.

Consoles that have linear conductive plastic faders also have extremely fragile goldplated wipers. When those go bad, some can be repaired others can't. And sometimes it's hard to find an exact replacement fader as many of these companies have gone in and out of business through the years. So even if they still exist it doesn't mean that they have that fader available anymore?

These are all things you have to consider when looking at any used equipment no matter how desirable they may appear to be. Unless you know what's going on inside, ya could end up with a beautiful looking nonfunctioning console? And ya really want to avoid that. So items that are quite popular and still in demand generally have a decent spare parts availability inventory. Even still, other popular brands from yesteryear have parts that are no longer available for them. And unless you are an expert technician, retrofitting is generally out of the question altogether. Though there are folks that love and live to do that. But they're going to cost ya. And that technician can end up costing more than you paid for your console. So that means even if you drop a couple of grand on a mixing desk, it might likely cost you that much and more to keep it going? Which can make a brand-new Beringer look mighty sweet. And you can still make good recordings on those. I have. Not exciting and no big whoop. But they work and that's all that matters.

My Neve is down, OMG! I have a half a dozen modules that need to be refurbished/restored/repaired. Ugh.
Mx. Remy Ann David

audiokid, post: 401532 wrote: I'm with you on automation and I don't use that near as much as I used to. Automation faders are great for recall though but I don't care. Just more stuff to go on the blink.

FWIW, When I was hunting for summing boxes the Neve was an obvious choice until I read more into everything. The flavour doesn't come from the summing box, or at least it shouldn't. The Neos is the top dog in that department but costly. Don't expect the summing amp to give it to you. Its purpose is about voltage, headroom and summing channels. This is where people are confused or mislead by the mislead.. If I want a Neve, I add Neve pres and Eq's. If I want SSL, same, If I want API, simple. Add the Pre's and EQ's for flavour and vibe and then... use BIG RAIL power from the summing amp to drive it all home!
Its the pres and EQ that you are looking for after you invest in a high headroom, big volt hybrid summing amp.

an outstanding bit of info from someone who has learned from experience.

This is a perfect example of exactly why I dig this place, because even an old dog like me continues to learn cool and valuable new things every day.

Thank you, Chris.

Chris said "The flavour doesn't come from the summing box, or at least it shouldn't." I respect his opinion but who made that a law? i think it would be cool to have both options .. color or transparent and while a summing network and other gear would be cool it would also be cool to have a real console to mix / sum on as well as having a console would be a great asset when tracking.

as far as that API i pointed out Donny, the cool thing about that particular one is;
1) it is a 1604 "portable" and it has very low hours for a board of that age
2) it's an original Saul Walker board loaded with original 2520's ... less than 500 of them were built before Datatronix took over production. this is a special console.

Datatronix later sold API to Paul Wolff. so this particular console is not the same as getting a new 1608. plus it's got the round fader knobs .... :>)

here are some commonts i found online;

"Datatronix changed the circuit board design but kept the electrical discrete design virtually the same. The circuit board had traces on the top and bottom, making it a little more difficult to service, especially around the opamp traces, which could potentially lift off, and the VF amps were on a separate smaller board which plugs into a socket and held down with a 4/40 screw.

Paul Wolff ( who bought API from Datatronix) said this about the various 550 versions:

The API 550:

Proportional Q, 3 bands on the top, 3 on the bottom and 5 in the middle, 2
transistor buffer amp X 4, a different (than the A) 2 pole filter for the high/low
pass switch, a strange way of switching the EQ out (all filters tied together,
then to gnd through a switch), 2 2520s and long frequency knobs.

The API 550A:

Proportional Q, 5 bands on the top, 5 on the bottom and 5 in the middle, 3
transistor buffer amp X 4, 1X-10X high and low pass filters-same frequencies as
the 550 (50 hZ to 15Khz band pass), each band went through it's own in/out switch,
2 2520s and short frequency knobs.

i don't think anyone ever pays the Buy it Now price on these things at EBay ... there is a Make Offer button and i would bet someone could get either one for less than the asking price. still that's a lot of cash to spend on something that will most likely never pay for itself.