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Paris cheaper than RADAR. .

On 27 Mar 2002 06:26 cram wrote:

I did and I thought they both sounded sweet. I went with PARIS cause it was cheaper at the time. If I am forced by market pressures to jump on the rickety 96k bandwagon I will probably have to switch to RADAR. ... Nowhere in this plan is there even a glimmer of anything resembling ProStools/Alsh*thead anywhere. As ineffectual and pointless as I think that whole debate is, and as far as I have tried to stay out of it, I still just don't like how it sounds or operates.
You may find that you can now afford RADAR. Watch our site today (http://www.recordingtheworld.com) for an exciting announcement about "RADAR 24 Project" It's a $5995 box with the "Classic" 48k cards that everyone has been raving about but cost reduced by using a high reliability IDE drive instead of a SCSI drive and by replacing the pro remote(Session Controller) with a less expensive one(KC24).

Barry, iZ President
http://www.recordingtheworld.com

Comments

Guest Thu, 03/28/2002 - 12:04
How about some sort of Pro Tools compatable 'time stamping' so we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports.
The new little Tascam unit does this and folks love it for that, I am pointing my "in the field" clients towards Tascam for this very reason..

Barry?

Tom Cram Thu, 03/28/2002 - 12:17
>How about some sort of Pro Tools compatable 'time stamping' so we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer
Yes, Yes, me likey. Even something like a basic reference to zero and recalc function, would be better than nothing at all.

anonymous Thu, 03/28/2002 - 20:53
"the new 3.10 software that exports to PT"
Barry, do you care to elaborate on it's use with hotswap SCSI drives that pro studios use with PT?

Julian,

After recording on RADAR, press the new Export button(Most of RADAR's functions are dedicated buttons as opposed to menus) and select a directory on the drive -> export to WAV or BWAV(with the time stamp), remove the disk, plug it into Alsihad, drag the files into the session.

Ted,

The other three products, Classic, Nyquist and S-Nyquist are going up in price on May 1st.

Barry

Guest Fri, 03/29/2002 - 04:36
Originally posted by RADAR:
The other three products, Classic, Nyquist and S-Nyquist are going up in price on May 1st.
So besides being ass over teeth in love with the S-Nyquist package... you mean I saved money too!! Whoo-hoo!!

I think we're definitely going to accept your offer to become a dealer for this!!

Sir Bob Fri, 03/29/2002 - 20:37
As devils advocate, isn't digital just one's and zero's? The sound of digital should be the same and probably the most important thing in achieving good digital sound is the converters, right?

What is RADAR doing to convince ya'll that the stuff sounds better than Alishad. I've read the reviews posted on the RADAR site and they aren't making a big deal about the sound quality.

And if RADAR is truely better, why can't Mother of Alishad cop it?

I didn't see much about plug in's. Does RADAR use plug in's?

Price wise I see a Project studio version of RADAR costing only slightly more than getting a top of the line G4 and Digi 001.s So please sell me some more on RADAR. :w:

anonymous Sat, 03/30/2002 - 06:18
Originally posted by Sir Bob:
As devils advocate, isn't digital just one's and zero's? The sound of digital should be the same and probably the most important thing in achieving good digital sound is the converters, right? What is RADAR doing to convince ya'll that the stuff sounds better than Alishad. I've read the reviews posted on the RADAR site and they aren't making a big deal about the sound quality.
The converters we use are AKM. Those chips are 10% of the design. The rest is very high quality analog components and pcb considerations including heavy analog and digital ground plane management, super high quality coupling capacitors(expensive - where many of the others chince out), $25 (per channel) magnetic isolators and most importantly of all about $300 worth of analog PLL(Phase Lock Loop) circuitry to provide what is probably the cleanest clock in the industry. Everything in RADAR is designed with one thing in mind ... sound quality!

Also, we have won every listening test against other digital systems. Recently see Fletcher and Mixerman's post on [url=(dead link removed)[/url] -> Recording Forums -> Rec Pit.


And if RADAR is truely better, why can't Mother of Alishad cop it?
I believe they could eventually cop it but they are not focussed on sound quality as we are. They are focussed almost exclusively on increasing their install base as fast as possible. We are more concerned about providing customers with a product that gives them the best quality sound in keeping with our mission statement "Helping customers realize their goals by delivering excellence and innovation in recording products of the highest quality"


I didn't see much about plug in's. Does RADAR use plug in's?
We avoidplug-inscause they cause increased latency. Worse, the latencies are different for different effects on different channels which causes multi-channel "smearing" of the sound. It is impossible for Digidesign to control this with all those 3rd parties writing their variousplug-ins This is why all of our editing software (including the new 3.10 release which adds a ton of editing features) is all dedicated in-house code that works in real time with no increase latencies or other corruptions to the sound quality. It also makes the editing really fast!


Price wise I see a Project studio version of RADAR costing only slightly more than getting a top of the line G4 and Digi 001.s So please sell me some more on RADAR. :w:

If you configure Pro Tools as a RADAR with 24 channels of I/O it is substantially more expensive.

The sell is this:
1) It sounds better than anything out there - this can be the bottom line difference between a $million seller and a flop.
2) It is so easy to use - it does not interupt the creative process - it was designed by users who understand this - it makes the session "flow" like no other recorder. You may not fully understand this aspect until you use it on a session but you probably understand what I'm talking about.
3) It NEVER crashes. We test RADAR obsessively and won't ship it until it is solid as a rock. We are paranoid of ever having a reputation for crashes.

anonymous Sat, 03/30/2002 - 11:29
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:
Barry is not only the president of iZ but the original designer of RADAR. So you know something's right.

Is the Nyquist converter set the same at 44.1-96kz as the S-Nyquist set (which also includes 192 A/D/A)?

Ted
The Nyquist boards have the same D/A as the S-Nyquist(i.e. 192 kHz) but the S-Nyquist has different a A/D and is a little cleaner at 48k.

Sir Bob Sat, 03/30/2002 - 12:31
More questions:

Does the RADAR package come with a mix board?

I take it that in mixing, you send an analog signal to a bus/insert and add your compression and/reverb just like analog mixing?

Where do you send the final two-channel mix? Do you bounce within RADAR or do you send it out to something like a Masterlink or DAT for a final mix?

What is the method of saving sessions?

As to portability, can I rack it up and take it into a recording studio (where I want to track drums)?

While Alishad might have the edge in editing ability, I would definately buy a PARIS if I felt the audio was superior.

Fletcher's success with RADAR included use of
GLM EQ and Fatso. To what extent will I need more than good mics and preamps to get a good sound with RADAR?

And what about ( :roll: ) midi? Just in case I want to put some primative keyboard on?

osmuir Sun, 03/31/2002 - 07:45
paris sounds great, but it's a bitch. crashes alot, unless you are really good at it, and it still does sometimes. the mixer sounds good, but sending audio in and out for the mixer produces some unplesant latency [which i don't think you can fix entirely, i've tried...correct me if i am wrong].

it is most definately cheaper than radar though. and you do need a board, i believe.

--owen

Ted Nightshade Sun, 03/31/2002 - 09:54
To what extent will I need more than good mics and preamps to get a good sound with RADAR?
----------------------------------
Aye, there's the rub!
If I take this collosal plunge ('cos it seems like the S-Nyquist is the best way to go) I'll be screaming bloody murder if it doesn't sound glorious with "just" wondrous mics, pres, instruments, placement, room, musicians.
However I will be willing to work at 96k if this can be achieved, which may be a difference between my approach and Fletcher's. Also I don't already own a Fatso and a HEDD.... and I'm not too addicted to "analog tape" type sound, but I am a hardcore junkie when it comes to the sounds of the instruments in the room- which don't sound, to me, like they've already been recorded to analog tape. ;) :p
Hope that doesn't make my grail quest that much rougher.....
Ted

anonymous Sun, 03/31/2002 - 15:13
Originally posted by Sir Bob:
More questions:

Does the RADAR package come with a mix board?

I take it that in mixing, you send an analog signal to a bus/insert and add your compression and/reverb just like analog mixing?

Where do you send the final two-channel mix? Do you bounce within RADAR or do you send it out to something like a Masterlink or DAT for a final mix?

What is the method of saving sessions?

As to portability, can I rack it up and take it into a recording studio (where I want to track drums)?

While Alishad might have the edge in editing ability, I would definately buy a PARIS if I felt the audio was superior.

Fletcher's success with RADAR included use of
GLM EQ and Fatso. To what extent will I need more than good mics and preamps to get a good sound with RADAR?

And what about ( :roll: ) midi? Just in case I want to put some primative keyboard on?
Mixer?
RADAR is a 24 channel hard disk recorder like a 2" tape machine. It has tons of editing but no mixer. You would put RADAR together with a Protools system or a dedicated digital or analog mixer.

Final Mix?
Alot of people reserve tracks 23 and 24 for the mix back from the mixer.

Saving Sessions?
RADAR "saves" or writes sessions to the audio drive. If you mean backup, you can backup onto a built in DVD RAM drive, the internal IDE drive, a network or an external SCSI device such as another SCSI hard disk or tape drive. The backup procedure is easy. Just press a button called "Backup" RADAR takes care of all the file management for you.

Portability?
RADAR is a standard 19" rack unit, completely self contained including VGA monitor output, no external computer required. It is great on the road or for taking from studio to studio.

Sound?
The best sound. You won't need anything but a good mic, a room and some musicians to get good sound on RADAR.

MIDI?
No built-in MIDI sequencer yet, although we've thought about it many times. My first product was the Anatek Pocket Sequencer - a full 16 track sequencer in a little box that sold for $150.
http://www.keyboardmuseum.com/ar/a/anat/seq.html
Do you think alot of people would go for that in a pro recorder? Most people just hook up their favorite sequencer to RADAR's MIDI port.

anonymous Sun, 03/31/2002 - 15:16
Originally posted by owen muir:
paris sounds great, but it's a bitch. crashes alot, unless you are really good at it, and it still does sometimes. the mixer sounds good, but sending audio in and out for the mixer produces some unplesant latency [which i don't think you can fix entirely, i've tried...correct me if i am wrong].

it is most definately cheaper than radar though. and you do need a board, i believe.

--owen
How much is a fully loaded Paris with 24 channels of analog I/O? Have you seen our new version of RADAR -> "RADAR 24 Project" it sells for only $5999 as a complete system.

anonymous Tue, 04/02/2002 - 09:16
Hi Barry,
I am very intrigued by the new RADAR 24 as I will be ready for an upgrade in the Fall from my simple 8 channel setup and outdated software. The price is now comparable to what I would need for 16 channels of decent AD/DA (RME), new sound card, computer, and software which definately has me me leaning towards RADAR.
Now a comment:
I've been looking at your site and reading as much as I could about the different systems. The one thing I came away with is that the site is not all that helpful. It's a bit convoluted and on the front page RADAR 24 is described as having:
- 48 kHz Classic analog I/O
- KC-24 remote controller
- 40G internal IDE recording HD
- Ethernet, IDE & ext. SCSI backup
(Add DVD-RAM backup for $695.00!)
but on the infomation page the features say DVD-RAM is standard, doesn't mention the IDE drive, and mentions the Analog I/O as an option. Please clear this up because if the Analog I/O is not included in the $5995 price (listed at $5690 on the info page!) the price comparison I mentioned before, is much different. Thanks in advance for clearing this up. Maybe I'm just not seeing things right but does anyone else feel the same about the site?
JC

anonymous Tue, 04/02/2002 - 10:10
Originally posted by Julian Standen:
How about some sort of Pro Tools compatable 'time stamping' so we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports.
The new little Tascam unit does this and folks love it for that, I am pointing my "in the field" clients towards Tascam for this very reason..

Barry?
I am so obtuse sometimes Barry. Please, forgive me, for really dumb Stedel's...was that a "Yes" to Julian's question? :(

"we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports".

How long does it take?

And this 96kHz thing...if you don't mind me asking, when are you going higher, or don't you see the need?

A simple "yes we have plans to do this by" or "no we don't see the need"for the 96kHz thing would be really nice. Nothing too complicated. I've got AD/
DA conversion fatique.

I was giving Radar a good look over last year.Was very interested. The "swappable" drives thing (which is something I would need BTW) was being mooted over on the IZ Forum when I last visited.
So. without waiting with a cup of coffee, you just
pull it out and "slam it" into a ProTools rig? And then hit the ProTools Controller at full speed? No waiting at all? Is that what happens?

Wow.
:cool:
Kind regards

anonymous Tue, 04/02/2002 - 10:12
Originally posted by Julian Standen:
How about some sort of Pro Tools compatable 'time stamping' so we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports.
The new little Tascam unit does this and folks love it for that, I am pointing my "in the field" clients towards Tascam for this very reason..

Barry?
I am so obtuse sometimes Barry. Please, forgive me, for really dumb Stedel's...was that a "Yes" to Julian's question? :(

"we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports".

How long does it take?

And this 96kHz thing...if you don't mind me asking, when are you going higher, or don't you see the need?

A simple "yes we have plans to do this by" or "no we don't see the need"for the 96kHz thing would be really nice. Nothing too complicated. I've got AD/
DA conversion fatique.

I was giving Radar a good look over last year.Was very interested. The "swappable" drives thing (which is something I would need BTW) was being mooted over on the IZ Forum when I last visited.
So. without waiting with a cup of coffee, you just
pull it out and "slam it" into a ProTools rig? And then hit the ProTools Controller at full speed? No waiting at all? Is that what happens?

Wow.
:cool:
Kind regards

anonymous Wed, 04/03/2002 - 04:41
Originally posted by josh clark:
Hi Barry,
I am very intrigued by the new RADAR 24 as I will be ready for an upgrade in the Fall from my simple 8 channel setup and outdated software. The price is now comparable to what I would need for 16 channels of decent AD/DA (RME), new sound card, computer, and software which definately has me me leaning towards RADAR.
Now a comment:
I've been looking at your site and reading as much as I could about the different systems. The one thing I came away with is that the site is not all that helpful. It's a bit convoluted and on the front page RADAR 24 is described as having:
- 48 kHz Classic analog I/O
- KC-24 remote controller
- 40G internal IDE recording HD
- Ethernet, IDE & ext. SCSI backup
(Add DVD-RAM backup for $695.00!)
but on the infomation page the features say DVD-RAM is standard, doesn't mention the IDE drive, and mentions the Analog I/O as an option. Please clear this up because if the Analog I/O is not included in the $5995 price (listed at $5690 on the info page!) the price comparison I mentioned before, is much different. Thanks in advance for clearing this up. Maybe I'm just not seeing things right but does anyone else feel the same about the site?
JC
Hi Josh,

Your right, sorry for the confusion. The site needs to be fixed and it will be fixed soon. However, there are 4 products. 3 of them are SCSI recorders - RADAR 24 Classic, RADAR 24 Nyquist, RADAR 24 S-Nyquist and the 4th one is an IDE recorder - RADAR 24 Project. The "Project" does not come with standard with the DVD RAM disk cause it ships with the new 3.10 software that allows one to backup to the internal system drive as well as to the ethernet. All the products come with analog I/O. We used to offer a base unit without analog I/O so you could save money and hook it up to a digital mixer but no-one is buying it that way so we are removing that option.

Call us at 1-800-776-1356 if you need further clarification on this.

anonymous Wed, 04/03/2002 - 04:50
Originally posted by stedel:
[QB]
Originally posted by Julian Standen:
[qb]How about some sort of Pro Tools compatable 'time stamping' so we could just yank a SCSI hotswap drive out of a Radar unit and slam it into a PT rig without having to fanny around with a real time transfer (Yawn!) and 24 tracks (at a time) of AES interface ports.

How long does it take?
You export the files over the ethernet or via a SCSI disk at about 2 to 3 MB/s )real time is 3.6 MB/s) and then simply drop the files into the Protools session

And this 96kHz thing...if you don't mind me asking, when are you going higher, or don't you see the need?

A simple "yes we have plans to do this by" or "no we don't see the need"for the 96kHz thing would be really nice. Nothing too complicated. I've got AD/DA conversion fatique.
YES, we already do (and were the first to do) both 96 kHz and 192 kHz!

anonymous Wed, 04/03/2002 - 09:38
Originally posted by RADAR:
Originally posted by owen muir:
paris sounds great, but it's a bitch. crashes alot, unless you are really good at it, and it still does sometimes. the mixer sounds good, but sending audio in and out for the mixer produces some unplesant latency [which i don't think you can fix entirely, i've tried...correct me if i am wrong].

it is most definately cheaper than radar though. and you do need a board, i believe.

--owen
How much is a fully loaded Paris with 24 channels of analog I/O? Have you seen our new version of RADAR -> "RADAR 24 Project" it sells for only $5999 as a complete system.Paris can be as stable as any DAW. The crashing problems are inherent in any platform that lets you choose the underlying computer hardware & software. Once you have a stable set of components, you have a stable system. iZ goes through the trouble of selecting all of the components for you - one platform, fewer bugs.

It just depends on what you need. Paris is also a great mixer - something to consider. You don't need a console to track bands with it. Just preamps.

Latency - you can correct for any amount of latency down to the millisecond level in the Paris editor, or down to the sample level with a 3rd party plugin. Measure your latency through the AD/DA chain, and correct for it.

But let's see, approx $1895 for a base Paris Bundle III system, add in 16 ins and outs, ~$1700, and a computer for ~$1000. Add more Bundle III's and I/O as needed (max 16 channels per interface). Since each interface (before additional I/O) has 4 analog channels of I/O, you could have a complete Paris system with 12 I/O per interface x 2 for a grand total of ~$6500.

Radar Project 24 sounds like a great product- it is a wonderful solution if you need to interface with a console or want to be portable. Good luck with the product!

Graham
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