Hi Everyone,
I'm creating this thread to discuss Roger Nichols as an engineer and of course his recording and mixing methods stated in his book.
Just purchased a copy of this book, not sure how many know about this book though.
Haven't seen the Pro Tools files yet because it requires an iLok, so i'm debating purchasing one, probably won't unless someone can vouch that it would be worth it.
I've read through the entire book once, some really good interesting information, I feel any engineer at any level would benefit from reading this book.
This book is full of interesting quotes on approach I've never heard.. For example..
Regarding Microphone Placement Starting Point:
- "As a starting point, place the microphone at a distance from the instrument equal to the size of the sound source."
Something also interesting to me but not surprising is that he's wasn't a big fan of compression at all, in fact he avoided it to the point that it was only used as the last option and only when you couldn't hear any change in tonality and character.
After microphone placement he stresses always using Eq before Compression whenever possible and at the same time microphone placement before EQ, of course.
Also EQ'ing things on the way in was his jam which makes me long for something like a Toft ATB16 just for tracking with EQ and dedicating to it, I think there's a lot to be said for that approach.
In regards to EQ there is certainly a boost before (while tracking), cut later while mixing theme.
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Kurt Foster, post: 439635, member: 7836 wrote: you can use anyth
Kurt Foster, post: 439635, member: 7836 wrote: you can use anything for monitoring. but not to sum or mix. once you're there, you should just stay itb unless you have a great console.
http://solidstatelogic.com/studio#&panel1-1
The Ssl and the APIs are basically rip offs as far as pricing goes, imho, but hot damn Kurt that focusrite looks killer. I didn't know they made that thing. Sure got me thinking about it. $3500 new. Does way more than the ssl desktop models for much less money.
Good call.
Butting back out.
kmetal, post: 439645, member: 37533 wrote: Is this console for a
kmetal, post: 439645, member: 37533 wrote: Is this console for a recording front end? For mixing/summing, for monitoring?
What is the main purpose for getting it?
The only way to get around the awful something always is broken phenomenon, is to have a true professional like Dan Zellnan, go through each channel, put new chips in caps in it, and rebuild the power supply. Even then I expect routine maintenance, and it probably cost as much as the console is worth. The good thing is, while somebody like that is at it, they'll probably modify things, and make it sound phenomenal. Usually it involves removing unnecessary capacitors, and increasing the size of the capacitors that are there, and using different IC chips
Sorry I will butt out now.
The console would just be used for tracking front end with a live monitor feed off of the console.
Then once the tracking is done, I would stay all ITB and monitor directly out of my D-A converters to my SPL MTC monitor controller.
Ok cool. Sounds to me like sound quality / tendencies is the mo
Ok cool. Sounds to me like sound quality / tendencies is the most important part in your case.
If you step up the budget a little you can get into the 'real' consoles. I'm no amek expert, but a member here named gette rebuild an amek to the very last detail.
Lol I again am no expert, but look at the name drops in this add and the asking price....
kmetal, post: 439650, member: 37533 wrote: Ok cool. Sounds to m
kmetal, post: 439650, member: 37533 wrote: Ok cool. Sounds to me like sound quality / tendencies is the most important part in your case.
If you step up the budget a little you can get into the 'real' consoles. I'm no amek expert, but a member here named gette rebuild an amek to the very last detail.
Lol I again am no expert, but look at the name drops in this add and the asking price....
What qualifies as a real console?
I'm not sure on the price?
I know of several rooms that use these "table top mixers" for th
I know of several rooms that use these "table top mixers" for their individual monitoring systems. Both with REAL consoles and REAL DAWS they are tracking to.
Myself, I use a Crapinger Powerplay16 with 5 16 channel remotes powered through the ethernet connections for my headphone system to the performers. I take the analog feed directly from the converters and use the I/O in ProTools HD to select and send any combination of new or existing tracks to the phones with zero latency and very very decent sound. Its one of only three Crapinger devices I would ever recommend. The artists get their very own headphone mix in REAL TIME and can customize it to their desires. 16 channels of customization......
Its important to have a zero latency (okay for the sake of accuracy theres actually one or two samples of latency @96K) ain't much and you can't feel it or hear it guaranteed.....important to the producing of quality played tracks.
As for playback monitoring I come right off the converters in analog of my Omni and split the signal to the different speaks through a switcher with level controls as well as being able to choose my source. It's not the Dangerous ST by any means but its really okay. Its also the last part of my build-out that I will address when I decide to actually record stuff on a regular basis.
ChrisH, post: 439664, member: 43833 wrote: What qualifies as a r
ChrisH, post: 439664, member: 43833 wrote: What qualifies as a real console?
I'm not sure on the price?
+1 on the berringer headphone system. My buddies works great.
A real console is anything that exists in the present world or ones imagination. Sorry for the existentialism
A 'real' console in my humble mind, means commercial audio quality. One designed by one of the major companies. One that 'real records' were made on. Something where if any engineer of any level high to low, would be okay making any recording on.
It almost always has a standalone power supply. May be transformer or transistor based. Something that's sounds better than most, basically a sound that is unattainable otherwise.
It's a console people know the sound of just by hearing the name, even if they've never touched it. A truly well designed beast, that wasn't designed to meet an affordable price point, rather designed well, and affordable by the lucky few.
Not the LE model, not the lowest model from the brand, not some 'featuring the eq from' type deal. The full on powersucking, money pit, that creates sonic nirvana.
Now that some of these things are so old they've become affordable in the mid level professional market.
The way I see it that neve/calrec I linked is a steal, it came up super quickly, and I haven't priced out the modules. But asking 5800 means you should likely get it for 5k without much effort. It's not like the average person is looking for a large power sucking 5k mixer. They dream,but don't make it come true. Neve doesn't put there name on anything that's not up to comercial standards. Calrec is neve. Vintage neve. The bbc couldn't use exclusively neve stuff due to some laws, so calrec was invented, and is based off neve, to a T. They knew what they liked and stuck w it.
The way I see it is like this. A pizza driver makes like 100$ a night around here after gass and stuff.
The difference in price between a soundcraft, and a neve is 2k. That's 20 nights slingin pizza and your in the big league console realm.
Now there's a lot of assumptions involved w that link, assuming things like it actually works, and each module has the parts that it should based on spec. It assumes the console is working and upto snuff.
But the point is if that thing came up in like 3min of a search, than imagine what some digging can do. I was looking for a price on an amek Angela or Hendricks, becuase if I remember correctly one of those is based off of neve style, but much cheaper.
Why neve you ask? Becuase neve is probably the most commonly thought of as 'good or best' console for tracking. Neve designs have been copied forever, and even 50 years later still reigning.
Ssl is may have the edge for mixing, and UA610 did van halens first album. A guitar sound even Eddie hasn't matched since.
But who's mixing on an ssl these days? Big studios who tracked on a neve lol. UA makes modules of the 610 albeit not to the original spec that eruption was recorded on. Ssl makes modules of their stuff too, if you want their bus comp, or eq for guitars or snares or something. Neve makes modules too. But for tracking buying the console gets you much more for the money, 5k gets you 2-3 neve modules, or a 16 channel console filled with them. Not having 8-16 individual power supplies saves on money, one reason consoles are cheaper than individual racks units of the same thing.
Harrison is a 'real' console, so is neotek, and cadec. But how often are people longing for those compared to neve? It's what you like
Best obviously but there's a reason why neve is the name synonymous with punchy fat tracked sounds.
The instant I plugged into a calrec module ripped from an old console, into good (not boutique) apogee Rosetta conversion, w a simple sm 7, my life changed. That moment. I went 'oh ok, I understand now'. Sure I tried the other pres. The Manley, DBx, eureka, same converters and mic, yet nothing came close. Well close maybe, but never touched it. It was the 'sound of a record'. And I always found that expression lame and pretentious, but when I finally achieved it, just for that moment, I knew what the guys older and more experienced, meant when they said 'sounds like a record'. Never mind the delivery format, it's not that type of record. It means 'real' master recording, the finished painting.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not claiming to be some comercial level engineer. The person I tracked was some local average rapper. Not hack, but nothing special. Yet the sound came faster and better than it otherwise would have.
I actually went on hiatus shortly after. that's when I knew gear counts. Between an accurate room/speakers and a simple amazing pre/eq module, good conversion. It's the sound. At a certain point the gear limits the engineer, and I realized I'd just grown pro. After playing the role for years, the sound stood up, to the title, and effortlessly.
Sorry to ramble with a boring aha moment. But the point is the best thing you can do is 'get It right to tape'. If right is a soundcraft go for it. If your heart says so follow it to the top. If your budget can't afford it save or just settle.
My new stuff is all specd mid level/pro sumer. As far as conversion/interfacing. That's becuase of life happening, but the rest of my mid level speakers, and mics all gone, or going, in trade for a few 'real pieces'. So I don't claim to have the best, I claim to be purchasing prosumer interfacing at best, but that's interfaces. Mics and pres and eqs, no mid level crappola. They don't have to be expensive, just good. The sm 57 a perfect example.
Belive me, if I wasn't in the process of buying a brand new car, a work vehicle, building a basement apartment (independent walls and ceiling) with music/drafting room, looking for an actual home of my own, putting together a, 3 computer networked a/v system, new 7.2 reference monitors, projector screen, all new mics, cables, and stands.... Or have acess to two commercial studios, and actually tracked even half as often as I mix, I'd have a bunch of neve style modules console, or otherwise similar design, the Burl mothership (or comparable), and the dangerous st. So please don't take me as hypocritical or elitist. Expensive taste, sure, insatiable, mostly, snobby perhaps, honest, yup. There's never a bad time to have the best available. I'll be giving up the same 100-150$ in 'loss' when I sell my cheapest mics and my most expensive mic. I got equal use out of them, but vastly different performance. The 414 cost me 150$ to use for 8 years, the rode nt1a cost me a hundred to sit there in its box.
Some gear is an investment. Some gear is just a necessity and a cost of doing business. 10 years from now that neve will be worth more or as much as you paid for it. What will the soundcraft market look like? 10 years from now this lame $700 fartphone wont be worth a dime. Don't sell yourself short kid. Lol sorry I'm only 4 years older, I'm just messing around w the 'kid' thing.
kmetal, post: 439669, member: 37533 wrote: +1 on the berringer h
kmetal, post: 439669, member: 37533 wrote: +1 on the berringer headphone system. My buddies works great.
A real console is anything that exists in the present world or ones imagination. Sorry for the existentialism
A 'real' console in my humble mind, means commercial audio quality. One designed by one of the major companies. One that 'real records' were made on. Something where if any engineer of any level high to low, would be okay making any recording on.
It almost always has a standalone power supply. May be transformer or transistor based. Something that's sounds better than most, basically a sound that is unattainable otherwise.
It's a console people know the sound of just by hearing the name, even if they've never touched it. A truly well designed beast, that wasn't designed to meet an affordable price point, rather designed well, and affordable by the lucky few.
Not the LE model, not the lowest model from the brand, not some 'featuring the eq from' type deal. The full on powersucking, money pit, that creates sonic nirvana.Now that some of these things are so old they've become affordable in the mid level professional market.
The way I see it that neve/calrec I linked is a steal, it came up super quickly, and I haven't priced out the modules. But asking 5800 means you should likely get it for 5k without much effort. It's not like the average person is looking for a large power sucking 5k mixer. They dream,but don't make it come true. Neve doesn't put there name on anything that's not up to comercial standards. Calrec is neve. Vintage neve. The bbc couldn't use exclusively neve stuff due to some laws, so calrec was invented, and is based off neve, to a T. They knew what they liked and stuck w it.
The way I see it is like this. A pizza driver makes like 100$ a night around here after gass and stuff.
The difference in price between a soundcraft, and a neve is 2k. That's 20 nights slingin pizza and your in the big league console realm.
Now there's a lot of assumptions involved w that link, assuming things like it actually works, and each module has the parts that it should based on spec. It assumes the console is working and upto snuff.
But the point is if that thing came up in like 3min of a search, than imagine what some digging can do. I was looking for a price on an amek Angela or Hendricks, becuase if I remember correctly one of those is based off of neve style, but much cheaper.
Why neve you ask? Becuase neve is probably the most commonly thought of as 'good or best' console for tracking. Neve designs have been copied forever, and even 50 years later still reigning.
Ssl is may have the edge for mixing, and UA610 did van halens first album. A guitar sound even Eddie hasn't matched since.
But who's mixing on an ssl these days? Big studios who tracked on a neve lol. UA makes modules of the 610 albeit not to the original spec that eruption was recorded on. Ssl makes modules of their stuff too, if you want their bus comp, or eq for guitars or snares or something. Neve makes modules too. But for tracking buying the console gets you much more for the money, 5k gets you 2-3 neve modules, or a 16 channel console filled with them. Not having 8-16 individual power supplies saves on money, one reason consoles are cheaper than individual racks units of the same thing.
Harrison is a 'real' console, so is neotek, and cadec. But how often are people longing for those compared to neve? It's what you like
Best obviously but there's a reason why neve is the name synonymous with punchy fat tracked sounds.The instant I plugged into a calrec module ripped from an old console, into good (not boutique) apogee Rosetta conversion, w a simple sm 7, my life changed. That moment. I went 'oh ok, I understand now'. Sure I tried the other pres. The Manley, DBx, eureka, same converters and mic, yet nothing came close. Well close maybe, but never touched it. It was the 'sound of a record'. And I always found that expression lame and pretentious, but when I finally achieved it, just for that moment, I knew what the guys older and more experienced, meant when they said 'sounds like a record'. Never mind the delivery format, it's not that type of record. It means 'real' master recording, the finished painting.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not claiming to be some comercial level engineer. The person I tracked was some local average rapper. Not hack, but nothing special. Yet the sound came faster and better than it otherwise would have.
I actually went on hiatus shortly after. that's when I knew gear counts. Between an accurate room/speakers and a simple amazing pre/eq module, good conversion. It's the sound. At a certain point the gear limits the engineer, and I realized I'd just grown pro. After playing the role for years, the sound stood up, to the title, and effortlessly.
Sorry to ramble with a boring aha moment. But the point is the best thing you can do is 'get It right to tape'. If right is a soundcraft go for it. If your heart says so follow it to the top. If your budget can't afford it save or just settle.
My new stuff is all specd mid level/pro sumer. As far as conversion/interfacing. That's becuase of life happening, but the rest of my mid level speakers, and mics all gone, or going, in trade for a few 'real pieces'. So I don't claim to have the best, I claim to be purchasing prosumer interfacing at best, but that's interfaces. Mics and pres and eqs, no mid level crappola. They don't have to be expensive, just good. The sm 57 a perfect example.
Belive me, if I wasn't in the process of buying a brand new car, a work vehicle, building a basement apartment (independent walls and ceiling) with music/drafting room, looking for an actual home of my own, putting together a, 3 computer networked a/v system, new 7.2 reference monitors, projector screen, all new mics, cables, and stands.... Or have acess to two commercial studios, and actually tracked even half as often as I mix, I'd have a bunch of neve style modules console, or otherwise similar design, the Burl mothership (or comparable), and the dangerous st. So please don't take me as hypocritical or elitist. Expensive taste, sure, insatiable, mostly, snobby perhaps, honest, yup. There's never a bad time to have the best available. I'll be giving up the same 100-150$ in 'loss' when I sell my cheapest mics and my most expensive mic. I got equal use out of them, but vastly different performance. The 414 cost me 150$ to use for 8 years, the rode nt1a cost me a hundred to sit there in its box.
Some gear is an investment. Some gear is just a necessity and a cost of doing business. 10 years from now that neve will be worth more or as much as you paid for it. What will the soundcraft market look like? 10 years from now this lame $700 fartphone wont be worth a dime. Don't sell yourself short kid. Lol sorry I'm only 4 years older, I'm just messing around w the 'kid' thing.
Makes all the sense, thank you, Kyle!
bouldersound, post: 439696, member: 38959 wrote: Nothing wrong w
bouldersound, post: 439696, member: 38959 wrote: Nothing wrong with preferring very high grade gear. But when people view it as a sine qua non it's essentially a fetish.
sine qua non . lol... I had to look that up. :D
I'm a Canadian boy who grew up listening to music on fine stereo's. I make endless typo's, read slow but play a mean guitar when you cut me loose in a band that keeps time and plays in tune.
My friends and I had a fetish over who could discover the best sounding music of the week and build the best sounding stereo systems. And so it goes... Damn... I am suffering from a fetish called good sounding music. :love:
My fetish (attention to particulars I feel matter) has driven me in everything I do. It started with those friends and our stereo's.
I make a great living painting houses with the best paint available. And some people think its just water with colour in it. :rolleyes:
Does the best matter to them? No... and rightfully so... they can't see the difference. Their focus (fetish) is not on the walls or detail. Thus, they will never be my client. :cool:
(y)
audiokid, post: 439698, member: 1 wrote: sine qua non . lol... I
audiokid, post: 439698, member: 1 wrote: sine qua non . lol... I had to look that up. :D
I'm a Canadian boy who grew up listening to music on fine stereo's. I make endless typo's, read slow but play a mean guitar when you cut me loose in a band that keeps time and plays in tune.My friends and I had a fetish over who could discover the best sounding music of the week and build the best sounding stereo systems. And so it goes... Damn... I am suffering from a fetish called music. :love:
I make living painting houses with the best paint available.
(y)
As long as that fetish doesn't include spandex you're good.
Davedog, post: 439701, member: 4495 wrote: Isn't it more like, O
Davedog, post: 439701, member: 4495 wrote: Isn't it more like, Once you've seen the big city, you can't go back to the farm??
there ya go, Dave, perfectly put.
But I'll add: back to a farm that produces nothing but weeds and grief lol.
I love being on the farm more than the city. Simple and calm, no drama, nothing but space and the sound of nature. :love:
Got to have high speed internet though . Can't send those audio files around the world on dial-up. ;)
kmetal, post: 439669, member: 37533 wrote: Harrison is a 'real'
kmetal, post: 439669, member: 37533 wrote: Harrison is a 'real' console, so is neotek, and cadec.
I went with a Neotek Elan' back in the later 80's and into the early 90's; it's not that I didn't want a Neve, or an SSL or Harrison, I'd worked on several of those consoles before at other studios when doing hired-gun work, and without a doubt, there is a certain vibe to those desks that others don't have; but in those days, when they were still "de facto" in most pro rooms, ( along with Trident, Calrec, Sony, Euphonix) they were priced way above what I could have ever even dreamed about spending... there was just no way I could have ever afforded one for my studio, nor did I operate in a geographic locale that would have supported the investment for one of those desks, either. I would have had to charge NYC/L.A. studio rates in a mid-sized Midwestern city, and I wouldn't have gotten it. The client base in my region simply wouldn't have been there to support the investment of having one of "those" desks.
The Neotek was a really nice console; the mic pre's were transistor based ( SB727's, I think?), it had great headroom, very low noise, and "floating" impedance, which meant that the pre's would "match" various mic impedances by sensing the resistance of the input device. The EQ section rivaled that of desks that were priced at 5x as much, so it definitely had its own type of vibe going on, and, because it was priced at around 35k, it allowed me to step up to a lower-level pro desk where I ( and my clients) were actually able to hear a difference between it and other lower-priced consoles ( Tascam, TAC, etc) that were popular in small to mid sized project studios at the time ... I tracked and mixed many singles and albums on that board, and I was always happy with the results...it certainly wasn't a Neve or an SSL - but then again, it wasn't 400 grand, either. LOL
The Elan' model I had was one of the first in-line configurations of consoles in similar price ranges - up to that point, many consoles were still split-design - so having an in-line was great, because it saved a lot of space. The desk I had was a 24 channel version, and was only about 7' long or so, not including the patch bay/producer's desk or tape transport section ( add another 2' or so) - but even at 9 ft, it sat very comfortably in my CR - without dwarfing me, producers, AE's, or clients/guests.
This pic below isn't of the console I had, but this one is very similar to what mine looked like:
If you'll notice, it also had individual modular-type channel strips ( not paired or grouped with others), so if one channel happened to go wizzly, you could simply pop out the one bad mod and send it out to Sytek be repaired - as opposed to being forced to remove channels grouped in modules of 4, or break down the whole desk, or worse, having to fly-in a console repair specialist. This design allowed me to keep working, because if one channel would go bad, the other channels would still work. The modular design also allowed for custom-built channels from Sytek; so I could have ordered "special" channels - with various features, if I wanted to. I never did, but it was nice to know that I could have.
I kinda regret selling it ( I picked up a Yamaha 02R when I went all digital, and predictably, it never sounded the same as the Elan' did); because I do still get the bug to work in "that" way , the tactile approach... there's definitely something to be said for being able to actually put your hands on a console, to tweak real knobs and pots, to push or pull real faders - but, then again, all things being what they are these days, even if I did still have that desk, I don't have any place that would be large enough to put it anymore... and there's just not enough business around here these days to justify opening an actual commercial studio again. Pro rooms have been dropping like flies over the past few years - and not just in my area, but globally... I would be incredibly naive - and very foolish - to think that I could build and open a commercial studio that would be any different - or do any better - than so many of the other ( and better equipped) places that have shut off their lights and locked their doors in the past few years.
And, if you want one, you'd better have better than average electronics repair skills... because they will require maintenance and servicing at some point... It's not a question of "if"... but a guarantee of "when".
Honestly, I really don't look at a LF console investment as being a good business move anymore. It's more of a "personal indulgence" thing now - and there's nothing wrong with that! Those who are considering purchasing a big name LF desk should do it, if they want to, because it will please them to own one... but as far as an actual business decision, it's not the best one; because in the majority of markets, you'll be hard-pressed to even pay it off and break even with it through client's business ... never-mind making any profit from the investment. You would really need to have a very solid pro client base in order to do that.
IMO of course.
;)
DonnyThompson, post: 439720, member: 46114 wrote: Those who are
DonnyThompson, post: 439720, member: 46114 wrote: Those who are considering purchasing a big name LF desk should do it, if they want to, because it will please them to own one
I'm sure many are familiar with the documentary The Story Of The Focusrite Console, I love the part at 17.00 min in where they interview Victor Castellanos Lopez of Turtle Studios just outside Madrid, Spain, who has shoe-horned colsole number 6 of only 10 ever made into an upstairs bedroom of his fathers' house.
This guy obviously has a great fondness for this console. Sure, it wil probably take a lifetime to pay it off, if ever, but hey, how many can say they own one of these classics, of the 7 or 8 that are still out there in existence?
To me, thats' passion and kudos to him, even if it takes up 90% of the room and sucks more power than a small Spanish village :D
Heck, if I had the coin I'd probably do the same ;)
If by chance you haven't seen this doco, its great viewing and a wonderful story on tracking down those 10 Focusrite consoles and the back story behind what many consider is the best LF console ever designed and made.
It's a great doc - I've watched it a few times. This desk is of
It's a great doc - I've watched it a few times.
This desk is of the same class as those other famous custom-built "limited run" consoles - like the Neve at Sound City (that Dave Grohl saved), the EMI Reddit consoles from Abbey Road (I think that Lenny Kravitz ended up with one of three built for Abbey Road in the 60's), and Peter Gabriel's SSL. Thgere are others, of course - Trident built a few custom desks as well.
These are a part of our history; and should be saved as such, and further, maintained to continue do what they did so well in the hey-day of LFC's.
there are plenty of LFC's still in use and they are still being
there are plenty of LFC's still in use and they are still being built.
in the 90's a lot of smaller studios were able to afford a used LFC and keep it in working order. and that is what has changed. with the demise of club work most bands don't have the cash flow to hire a studio and in many cases they don't need a demo to get a gig, like they did in days past. that plus the advent of better home recording kit has changed the landscape. but i seriously doubt that we will ever see the complete demise of the LFC as they are still simply the most convenient way to do things in a high pressure working environment.
Off the topic, but I still think it's currently impossible to ma
Off the topic, but I still think it's currently impossible to match the sound of an electric guitar recorded to tape.
I love the quote at the end where it says something like "Eric has been a motive, reactive response to the music" great to hear that after all these years the fire still burns.
I do however disapprove of the use of beats brand headphones, I found them terrible when I heard them. LOL
There are still quite a few LF consoles out there for sale...on
There are still quite a few LF consoles out there for sale...on flea-bay there are Ameks starting from a couple of grand...even some of the Neve Capricorn digital desks are going for under 20k...
- even still with support from Neve
I was suprised at how low some of them are actually going for...IMO its most likely down to the reasons, some of which Kurt mentions above, and what we know is happening out there in Studio land in general
I think there will always be a desire or need for them even as the digital realm keeps evolving
Sean G, post: 439736, member: 49362 wrote: I was suprised at how
Sean G, post: 439736, member: 49362 wrote: I was suprised at how low some of them are actually going for...IMO its most likely down to the reasons, some of which Kurt mentions above, and what we know is happening out there in Studio land in general
I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that "real" studios are closing their doors at an alarming rate; due to the fact that they can't compete with the mass of home "studios", - and I'm not talking about gear, I'm referring to "competing" from a revenue standpoint - and, so many of these basement studios are being run by people who really don't know what they are doing, and who have ultra-cheap gear, and who's clientele aren't able to hear the difference between a $50 Samson mic / AudioBox I/O and a Neve desk with Neumann mics anyway.
This clientele has also grown accustomed to paying an average of $10 per hour for recording/mixing, so, if (or when) they do contact a real studio and find out that the rates for a well equipped room are - that is operated by someone who does know what they are doing, and who charges $50, $75, even maybe $100 per hour - they are sticker shocked.
These $50 to $100 per hour rates for mid-sized project studios were common back in a time when people expected recording studios to charge them this amount; and because there weren't 40 studios in every city, keeping prices competitive and equal was easier, and benefited the studios. But now, with "studios" popping up on every block, in every city, in every basement and bedroom, who charge what amounts to little more than minimum wage as their hourly rate, the "average" client accepts that figure as the going rate.
There was also a lot more work for musicians/bands back then, too... as recently as the late 80's and early to mid 90's, clubs were still paying live acts a pretty decent wage, so a band could take the money from just one night's gig, and be able to afford a full day at a real room.
All of this adds up to real studios liquidating their inventory at cheap prices - likely figuring that it's better to sell the gear they have now while they can still get some money for it - and being worried that the longer they wait in trying to sell it, the lesser the chances of them being able to do so are.
This works out well for those who are looking at getting this pro gear; because they can get great deals on some pretty nice equipment - but in the end, they need to be able to pay for their investment, too... and as the days and months go by, with more and more hack recording services popping up, it makes it even more difficult for those with pro gear to survive.
I still think that the main motivation in getting into this level of gear should be that it pleases the person buying it, that they want it for themselves... and if you can afford it, and it will make you happy, then by all means, go for it.
But speaking strictly from a business perspective, it's just not a smart move anymore; unless you are located in an area where you have to have this level of gear to compete with the other studios in the area who also have it, and that there's enough pro business in that area, that it will give you a fair chance at recouping your investment.
But the truth is, in today's mid-level market, located in your average-sized city, it's highly unlikely that your studio will make much profit at all, never-mind generating enough revenue to pay for a Neve or SSL.
IMO. ;)
bouldersound, post: 439696, member: 38959 wrote: Nothing wrong w
bouldersound, post: 439696, member: 38959 wrote: Nothing wrong with preferring very high grade gear. But when people view it as a sine qua non it's essentially a fetish.
This holds true until your talking comercial level recordings. There's no other way to compete at the highest level except eith the best gear, an accurate room, and solid performers and songwriters. Beyoncé does not produce her tracks on an mbox thru a berringer x32. Dr dre doesn't use protools standard, he uses HD.
There's professional, and then there's commercial professional. There's Exceptions to this, but they are the exception, not the rule. And usually the gear exception, is centered around an amazing performance that can't otherwise be touched.
Too many home studios make examples of things like Adele using a road K2 for the keeper takes on rolling in the deep, as some sort of excuse, or justification for their use of crappy gear saying it doesn't matter, it worked for Adele.
DonnyThompson, post: 439720, member: 46114 wrote: I went with a Neotek Elan' back in the later 80's and into the early 90's; it's not that I didn't want a Neve, or an SSL or Harrison, I
That's what I was trying to illustrate to Chris. You had an awesome console, yet still desired one of the best, from the big three. To me with all the cool digital featured consoles out there, the only LFC Worth taking the money pit plunge into, would be one of the best. Otherwise you got something that's very expensive, and still fall short.
Sean G, post: 439736, member: 49362 wrote: There are still quite a few LF consoles out there for sale...on flea-bay there are Ameks starting from a couple of grand...even some of the Neve Capricorn digital desks are going for under 20k...
- even still with support from NeveI was suprised at how low some of them are actually going for...IMO its most likely down to the reasons, some of which Kurt mentions above, and what we know is happening out there in Studio land in general
I think there will always be a desire or need for them even as the digital realm keeps evolving
You got to remember also, that a lot of these consuls have been worked on by various technicians of various levels, and are likely just the shells of the originals. Having been replaced with Willie nilly part selection, or modified In someway. It takes a skilled equipment technician to suss out what's what with these things
DonnyThompson, post: 439738, member: 46114 wrote: I still think that the main motivation in getting into this level of gear should be that it pleases the person buying it, that they want it for themselves... and if you can afford it, and it will make you happy, then by all means, go for it.
But speaking strictly from a business perspective, it's just not a smart move anymore; unless you are located in an area where you have to have this level of gear to compete with the other studios in the area who also have it, and that there's enough pro business in that area, that it will give you a fair chance at recouping your investment.
Well, in addition to the engineer wanting it, there is no doubt that it offers a better final product to the client.
The music business was never really a smart business venture anyway, LOL, so none of these "investments and "no matter how modest or grandiose Are really good business moves. Although the collector/vintage market actually makes some sort of sense, but even that is classified as risky.
Although the collector/vintage market actually makes some sort of sense, but even that is classified as risky.
DonnyThompson, post: 439738, member: 46114 wrote: But the truth is, in today's mid-level market, located in your average-sized city, it's highly unlikely that your studio will make much profit at all, never-mind generating enough revenue to pay for a Neve or SSL.
Yup.
The bottom line is, there is no return on the investment of gear, or the studio build. The upfront cost is something that just needs to be eaten. You start from zero once everything is all done (built and installed)
even then, it's a breakeven business, just covering the operating expenses.
To me the art perspective supersedes the business perspective. I
To me the art perspective supersedes the business perspective. If I had to record music I didn't like to afford high end gear then I would get out of recording entirely. Having the option to pass on jobs I don't like makes any technical limitations more than acceptable.
Sad to report...rather late at that, that Kung Fu Bakery in Port
Sad to report...rather late at that, that Kung Fu Bakery in Portland is no more. There will be a sale of the very iconic pieces. I've been told that all pieces in the sale will be gone through and brought up to spec before leaving the premises. This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very very untimely death of founder and chief bottle washer and incredible musician and friend to all, Tim Ellis. I'm not sure of the status of this console at this time but it is an iconic SSL 6056E/G. A LOT of really (now) famous recordings came out of that place. Fortunately the repurposeing of the space will include retaining somewhat the footprint of the studio and from what I understand will house an excellent repair shop and possibly a used console rebuilder and marketer.
Davedog, post: 439742, member: 4495 wrote: Sad to report...rathe
Davedog, post: 439742, member: 4495 wrote: Sad to report...rather late at that, that Kung Fu Bakery in Portland is no more. There will be a sale of the very iconic pieces. I've been told that all pieces in the sale will be gone through and brought up to spec before leaving the premises. This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very very untimely death of founder and chief bottle washer and incredible musician and friend to all, Tim Ellis. I'm not sure of the status of this console at this time but it is an iconic SSL 6056E/G. A LOT of really (now) famous recordings came out of that place. Fortunately the repurposeing of the space will include retaining somewhat the footprint of the studio and from what I understand will house an excellent repair shop and possibly a used console rebuilder and marketer.
Its sad to hear another one closing its doors. :(
Man that sucks, I'm not familiar with Tim Ellis, or the studio b
Man that sucks, I'm not familiar with Tim Ellis, or the studio but it's a bummer just the same. That console is going to be an amazing mixing machine from whoever is lucky enough to get it. That's THE ssl Version to buy if you're ever going to get one. Although it probably cost a couple thousand dollars a year just for electricity if you ran it full-time. Beginning's could not exist without endings, hopefully everything moves on well for the associated members of the studio.
bouldersound, post: 439741, member: 38959 wrote: To me the art p
bouldersound, post: 439741, member: 38959 wrote: To me the art perspective supersedes the business perspective. If I had to record music I didn't like to afford high end gear then I would get out of recording entirely. Having the option to pass on jobs I don't like makes any technical limitations more than acceptable.
I don't disagree; and in your case I would offer that you being selective allows you to enjoy it more.
And if you did decide to step into the "big name" gear, if you are in a financial position where you can still do it strictly for the art, and are able to remain selective about whom you record, and the revenue is a distant third in that hierarchy, then by all means, you should do what makes you satisfied.
Davedog, post: 439742, member: 4495 wrote: Sad to report...rathe
Davedog, post: 439742, member: 4495 wrote: Sad to report...rather late at that, that Kung Fu Bakery in Portland is no more.
I'm saddened but not surprised. It seems that these days, I'm more surprised when I hear of big studios that remain open, and still continue to function as such.
There have been so many pro rooms - some iconic and historic - that have shut off their lights in the least 10 years; and it's sad that these places, that held such vibe and rich history, are now either empty shells, left to decay and fall down, or worse, parking lots.
There are a few that have become boutiques, condos, etc., and that's sad, too .... but at least the buildings are still there.
This... this is truly sad:
Le Studio, Morin Heights, Quebec, circa 2010.
Rush, Queen, David Bowie, The Bee Gees, Sting, Cat Stevens, April Wine, Sarah McLachlan, The Police, Asia... were but a few of the clients that recorded here.
DonnyThompson, post: 439748, member: 46114 wrote: I'm saddened b
DonnyThompson, post: 439748, member: 46114 wrote: I'm saddened but not surprised. It seems that these days, I'm more surprised when I hear of big studios that remain open, and still continue to function as such.
There have been so many pro rooms - some iconic and historic - that have shut off their lights in the least 10 years; and it's sad that these places, that held such vibe and rich history, are now either empty shells, left to decay and fall down, or worse, parking lots.
There are a few that have become boutiques, condos, etc., and that's sad, too .... but at least the buildings are still there.
This... this is truly sad:
Le Studio, Morin Heights, Quebec, circa 2010.
Rush, Queen, David Bowie, The Bee Gees, Sting, Cat Stevens, April Wine, Sarah McLachlan, The Police, Asia... were but a few of the clients that recorded here.
Have you seen the video ?...I think these stills are from that by the look of them.
It is sad I agree...considering the history of this studio. Like those that have gone, it is an indictment of the times we are living in today
Was there talk at one stage that someone was going to do somethi
Was there talk at one stage that someone was going to do something with Le Studio?...maybe try to restore it, if I'm not mistaken?
This is what has been happening this side of the pond http://albertmusic.com/news/bmg-acquires-alberts1
Here's a studio that's full of custom boutique gear, in the hear
Here's a studio that's full of custom boutique gear, in the heart of Manhattan, a block or two from Times Square. Probably some of the highest rent you could get in USA, I've never seen an add for this place in any magazine. It's a typical plain looking NYC/east coast studio. This is a place where people like Paul mcartny will just book a week and cut some tunes.
Tube tape machines, custom neve, if it wasn't so cool, it'd be sickening lol. Somehow they stay chugging. Tried to post the photos but I didn't have the option, probably something they set in the Google settings or something.
" This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very v
" This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very very untimely death of founder and chief bottle washer and incredible musician and friend to all, Tim Ellis. "
Jesus, the man has died and you people continue with your head in the sand of how the sky is falling in the music industry.
That is sad.
Brien Holcombe, post: 439754, member: 48996 wrote: " This was NO
Brien Holcombe, post: 439754, member: 48996 wrote: " This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very very untimely death of founder and chief bottle washer and incredible musician and friend to all, Tim Ellis. "
Jesus, the man has died and you people continue with your head in the sand of how the sky is falling in the music industry.
That is sad.
I don't think anyone has their head in the sand, Brien. I think Dave was simply mentioning that KFB studios in Portland was one of the rare ones to not close because of lack of business, but because it's chief operator had passed away.
When someone like that builds a reputation, and people come to his studio to record - not only because of the gear that's there but also because of the person who is doing the sessions - then it's gonna be hard for anyone else to make a go of it in the same place once that person has passed on, especially these days - and selling that studio to another buyer is gonna be tough, too - because of the reasons mentioned above, and because of the risk involved.
We're also dealing with a lack of information... for all we know, there are potential buyers but the business could be tied up in probate.
Brien Holcombe, post: 439754, member: 48996 wrote: " This was NO
Brien Holcombe, post: 439754, member: 48996 wrote: " This was NOT due to a lack of work, but rather due to a very very untimely death of founder and chief bottle washer and incredible musician and friend to all, Tim Ellis. "
Jesus, the man has died and you people continue with your head in the sand of how the sky is falling in the music industry.
That is sad.
It's not like anyone new him personally. Besides beliefs on whether death is a new beginning or even a bad thing vary from person to person.
It's not like you posted anything if merit. The guy died and you criticize us for talking about him and his industry.
Is this console for a recording front end? For mixing/summing, f
Is this console for a recording front end? For mixing/summing, for monitoring?
What is the main purpose for getting it?
The only way to get around the awful something always is broken phenomenon, is to have a true professional like Dan Zellnan, go through each channel, put new chips in caps in it, and rebuild the power supply. Even then I expect routine maintenance, and it probably cost as much as the console is worth. The good thing is, while somebody like that is at it, they'll probably modify things, and make it sound phenomenal. Usually it involves removing unnecessary capacitors, and increasing the size of the capacitors that are there, and using different IC chips
Sorry I will butt out now.