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ocdstudios 16 March 2010

Right now I'm running through two Behringer xenyx2442fx's ( 1 drums only with a send to the main board for monitoring) before you ask, I do it so I can record an entire band at once - including live drums - and monitor with no latency (from the boards) The directs are then sent to a Tascam US1641 (which also has pre' s) and I am running Cubase LE4 for now. (moving to 5 soon I hope!) It also allows me to set monitor and rec. levels seperately. Set the rec. level and it's good for the session (pretty much) Anyway, it works great. However, I have come to believe that the Behringer pre's and eq's are my limiting link in the chain. My mixes are pretty good at this point but they still don't have that "pro" sound. Like they are missing that extra clarity/sparkle/dreamy pro sound. It's not an eq thing I promise. They are good mixes, it's just that they still have that flavor of "home-studio". I tried to deny it but I really think it's the Behringer's coloring the sound (dulling it a bit). Or is it the Tascam? It could just be me. I know it could be a million other things but let's start with the ones I hear the most bad stuff about (Behringer ).

If you want to hear what the current set-up sounds like, all of the songs on this myspace page were done with this setup at my home, and mixed by me. http://www.myspace…"]Google[/]="http://www.myspace…"]Google[/]

I am ready to move to the next "quality" level.

Ok, so I've been eyeing a Alan & Heath board down at Guitar Center. 24 channel with direct outs on all channels. I could run this to the Tascam then into the box.

or

A&H has a 16 channel firewire/18 channel ADAT board (no sure the model - I'm sure ya'll do) You can run 16 channels simultaneously either direction. You can mix a Cubase session on the board (sort of) You could also Lightpipe it to a Digi 003 or vice versa I think with the ADAT (if I read it right).

Now, the questions -
Do you think the Behringers are dulling my tracks?
Do you think the A&H pre's and eq's will give me a better quality inital recorded track? "Studio quality" better?
Do you think the Tascam pre's color the sound at all?
If not - 24 channel (cheaper) board run to the 14 inputs on the Tascam? or 16 channel direct (no Tascam) firewire board?
Any other sugesstion for a set up? I am concerned about the quality of the recorded tracks. Once it's in the box, it's up to me. I don't mind mixing in the box, I am pretty familiar with Cubase by now. I also plan on possibly adding a pro tools rig soon as well.

Thank you for all your help and suggestions.

Getting GAS,
Matt in GA

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Comments

TheJackAttack Tue, 03/16/2010 - 21:10

How many sticks do you need for your whole band?

The ZED R16 is a great board as is the Mackie Onyx 1640i. Both of these would give you 16 individual channels plus a 2-bus (18 total). The ZED R16 also gives you ADAT inputs. The 003 would only get you the 4 onboard preamps which are ok but not great, and 8 channels on ADAT.

One Fireface 800 would get you 10 analog inputs, 2 ADAT inputs (16 channels) and 2 SPDif. Skip the Spdif so 26 inputs. You can chain two FF800's together (three actually) which would give you 52 (or 78).

A last option would be to by a proper board with as many channels as you require and then by stand alone AD/DA converters.

And yes, the Behringer built in noise, the noise of any cheap cables and connectors and their associated frequency attenuation, and the Tascam unit are holding you back.

ocdstudios Tue, 03/16/2010 - 21:27

So, the dullness is likely from the Behringer AND the Tascam. The digi 003 is no better.

The ZED 16 is a good board? As good as the fireface or Steinberg mr816csx?

I have read of the Fireface and also the steinberg mr816 csx (which could be chained as well. I don't ever see needing more than 16 simultaneous. I normally am running 11-14 at once. That would give me 3 guitars, bass, an entire drum set with 4 toms (generally I mix these on a small board - bad idea) and a scratch track vocal. So 16 simultaneous would be nice - I don't think I'd need more than that. I like a board for direct monitoring back to the band though. I've never been able to get the tascam or cubase to monitor with absolutely 0 latencey.

What would I be talking $$ wise with a board and converters?

ocdstudios Tue, 03/16/2010 - 22:33

ok, so cost wise it looks like a ZED. However, I really don't see mixing with it. Especially with no recall/mot. faders. I would still be in the box, which is ok. The ZED cannot control your Cubase faders, etc. You can only route the tracks to it and mix to a stereo out. Am I correct on that? ALSO, I am an "EQ twiddler" of sorts. I use eq'ing extensively. The cubase EQ are said to be pretty horrible. Since you eq alot during mixdown, I would have to route the tracks back to the zed and then back to cubase a few at a time and basically record the eq'd track. Every time I want to change the eq w/o using the cubase eq's. Is that right? I could do my mix in Cubase then do a final mix / eq on the board and record the sum. Not sure if that makes much sense to do it that way?

TheJackAttack Tue, 03/16/2010 - 22:41

You have several options for EQ.
;)

2-Track with the board into Cubase and then mix down back into the board. Each of the channels can be assigned via firewire back into the Zed. Use either external eq's or the onboard eq's. The 2-bus (17&18) is then recorded as a final stereo track back into Cubase via firewire. You can do most of your automation in Cubase itself.

As an aside. More folks ruin a good track by too much EQ-especially additive-than fix it. Subtractive EQ can be useful. There is a segment that likes to "carve" out spaces for each instrument but I've never found that as satisfactory but the rule is there are no hard and fast rules. Just good sound.

ocdstudios Tue, 03/16/2010 - 23:24

Problem with option 2 is by the time you have stereo channels (for stereo effects) I think you would burn up too many strips on the ZED. It would only allow 8 stereo channels from Cuebase. I could do some summing before sending to the ZED and that might work. It's got to be worth it just to have the Pre's and eq's if you want them. Seems like the most cost effective route to getting "pro or at least near-pro level" inital tracks down. It's GOT to sound more commercial than what I have now. I just want to get rid of that "Home studio" hint that it's got now.

Thanks for the plug-ins I'll give them a try. I really appreciate all your help with this. 2 grand is a lot to me to throw out there. Not to metion that new workstation I'll have to build! LOL!

boxcar Wed, 03/17/2010 - 00:21

ocdstudios, post: 344083 wrote: ok, so cost wise it looks like a ZED. However, I really don't see mixing with it. Especially with no recall/mot. faders. I would still be in the box, which is ok. The ZED cannot control your Cubase faders, etc. You can only route the tracks to it and mix to a stereo out. Am I correct on that? ALSO, I am an "EQ twiddler" of sorts. I use eq'ing extensively. The cubase EQ are said to be pretty horrible. Since you eq alot during mixdown, I would have to route the tracks back to the zed and then back to cubase a few at a time and basically record the eq'd track. Every time I want to change the eq w/o using the cubase eq's. Is that right? I could do my mix in Cubase then do a final mix / eq on the board and record the sum. Not sure if that makes much sense to do it that way?

the r16 can control your cubase faders, up to 32 of them through midi.
also controls transport bar in cubase.
you can route 16 tracks to the board for mix.
you can use the e.q's and inserts as "software plugs" in real time, no need to go back and forth.
you can mix to master stereo out, or 17/18 digital back in to the app. from any of the 16 tracks or to any of the 18 tracks.
you can send output channels to adat for mix or master.
the e.q's are of twiddling quality.lol
the pre's are nicer imo than the onyx pre's(i also have an onyx 1200f) but that's subjective, i kept the onyx for extra pre's and they are quite good.
just thought i'd share.

ocdstudios Wed, 03/17/2010 - 00:33

how would you compare (pre's - a/d conversion-sound quality) the A&H to the others? would having effects on the board (like the others) be benificial? BTW - this things getting mounted in a studio desk and not going to do live sound at all. The Yamaha looks decent but somewhat confusing.

if you send a stereo group channel (I typically send a mono guitar track to a stereo group to apply stereo effects) from cubase to a channel on the ZED it would become mono, correct? You would have to send it to 2 strips on the ZED to keep it stereo, correct?

So if you move a fader on the ZED it shows the fader movement in Cubase?

you can use the ZED eq's as plug-ins in cubase, did I understand that correctly or you basically loop the channel thru the ZED and back to use the eq?

Sorry, for the questions, I'm just trying to understand what I'm buying before laying out the cash.

boxcar Wed, 03/17/2010 - 01:21

ocdstudios, post: 344093 wrote: how would you compare (pre's - a/d conversion-sound quality) the A&H to the others? would having effects on the board (like the others) be benificial? BTW - this things getting mounted in a studio desk and not going to do live sound at all. The Yamaha looks decent but somewhat confusing.

if you send a stereo group channel (I typically send a mono guitar track to a stereo group to apply stereo effects) from cubase to a channel on the ZED it would become mono, correct? You would have to send it to 2 strips on the ZED to keep it stereo, correct?

So if you move a fader on the ZED it shows the fader movement in Cubase?

you can use the ZED eq's as plug-ins in cubase, did I understand that correctly or you basically loop the channel thru the ZED and back to use the eq?

Sorry, for the questions, I'm just trying to understand what I'm buying before laying out the cash.

i havn't heard those other boards but the A/H pre's/conversion imo is equal to the talent recorded.i fret a lot more about my mixing skills than the conversion loss.

i would rather use seperate outboard effects than the afterthought effects that are incorporated on these boards, though they're o.k. for live.there's so much "fun noise" live,it doesn't matter.lol
im glad A/H didn't put on board effects in the r16.money well spent somewhere else.
i had a mix wizzard with onboard effects and it was just that "ok for live stuff" delays.

yeah, if you send 2 mono tracks(pannrd L/R) or group track(panned center) to the r16, you use 2 tracks.
but you could, say effect your tracks as a sub mix on the r16 for 8 drum tracks,re-record them while keeping the originals, group them in a cubase group track and return them as a stereo pair to the r16 while retaining track and group automation in cubase.that's what i do and the conversion loss,well, i can't hear.it certainly wouldn't stop a great song from sounding great.

yes, if you move the 16 faders on the z, it moves the faders in cubase.you can also map 12 knobs and 4 more sliders to whatever you want.

you can use the e.q's real time for recording/plaback or record them back to the track after the fact, like an external plug.

oh, by the way, i don't work for A/H, i just like the board.lol

ocdstudios Thu, 03/18/2010 - 16:21

OK, so I'm pretty sure it's the Zed 16 but I want to know if it was YOUR money and Studio which of three would you buy and why:

- ZED 16 - $1999
- PreSonus StudioLive 16.4.2 Digital Mixer $1999
- Yamaha 01V96VCM Digital Mixing Console $2300

Boxcar - I already know your answer! I appreciate the help too! Does anybody have experience with these other boards? The Yamaha is supposed to be pretty good as well but I don't have any experience with them.

Thanks again before I make a final decision!

Matt in GA

ocdstudios Sun, 03/28/2010 - 14:50

boxcar, they are out of stock. Sweetwater says theirs is reserved??? not open on Sunday I don't think, i'll check. Found some from sellers on ebay. One is in AL (right next door) but only has a "merchandise credit" return policy. One seller in Nebraska or somewhere says 10 available. One in NY has it for $1795!!! Not sure about any of these places, anyone have a clue about these guys? search ebay for zed-r16 and it will show all 3. Sam Ash says 1 available but not guaranteed they also take like 3-5 days to process the order so I don't awnt to pay, wait till the end of the week then get the "oh by the way we don't have that item but we kept your $$ and it's on backorder" call.

I did check all the usuals as listed but ebay is about the only place except for the one on "reserve" at sweetwater. I will call them.

Matt

boxcar Sun, 03/28/2010 - 15:45

they say they have stock and are reputable according to a friend of mine.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.djdeals…"]DJDeals.com - ALLEN & HEATH ZED-R16 MIXER FREE SHIPPING![/]="http://www.djdeals…"]DJDeals.com - ALLEN & HEATH ZED-R16 MIXER FREE SHIPPING![/]

edit: i looked again and it doesn't specifically say that it's the r 16 that's in stock, but it might be.

TheJackAttack Sun, 03/28/2010 - 16:31

Actually OCD is correct to call. Lot's of internet presences claim to have kit in stock but really just have it drop shipped from the OEM. Even the big reputable companies sometimes. That is true 85% of the time on the ebait business even if they are actually "authorized dealers." Monday is just around the corner so go read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook or something to kill the time.

ocdstudios Sun, 03/28/2010 - 18:30

Boxcar - got your pm - anyone know how to contact DJ deals to see if they actually have it? I can't find any phone # listing!! I hate to order from a place I can't talk to to verify!

Front end has a number and says they have it, I'll call themtomorrow, anyone know if they price match to djdeals?

Thanks for the help!!

djmukilteo Sun, 03/28/2010 - 20:31

You could check out Northern Light and Sound (NSL)...I got a great deal on mine from them...it took awhile to get it, but it was like Jack said drop shipped....but also I have purchased a few items from Sweetwater lately and I have to say they are the best!....and....I don't work for any of these guys....I've just really come to like Sweetwater and their service..

BTW...looks like the ZED GS-R24 board is getting closer to a reality...of course were talking a bit more dough than the R16!
Also....there have been some used R16 spotted around...

boxcar Sun, 03/28/2010 - 22:19

dvdhawk, post: 344793 wrote: As always, caveat emptor: [[url=http://[/URL]="reviews">http://www.reseller…"]resellerratings.com[/]="reviews">http://www.reseller…"]resellerratings.com[/] reviews from DJD customers.

wow, that's a lot of bad reviews.i guess my friend was lucky his purchase panned out.he was very happy with a zed 14 from there.

edit: i think i just learned another lesson.

jg49 Sun, 03/28/2010 - 23:26

Frontend is a great company and they have price matched for me before but not specifically DJD. In 2008 I did 5-6 thousand dollars with them, many different orders, I even made some mistakes which they did no cost returns for, which they did not have to. They offer Frontend Audio card (credit) for financing if you want. They get a thumbs up from me.

ocdstudios Tue, 03/30/2010 - 01:15

no one has it. Checked all of the above - no dice (DJDeals "claims" to have a b-stock available though...) did find a line on a used one that had issues originally (think it's the comp/user not the board) but the guy won't pm me back or reply to his thread! UUUGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!

I'm about to give up and go another route. Anyone know of a used Tascam 3200 with a FW card in it? Would that be a step in the wrong direction?? I have also considered the Presonus studiolive....

I really hope I find a ZED before I buy something else and get an inferior result... any more suggestions. THANK YOU for all the help, it means a lot to me!

Matt

TheJackAttack Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:00

The ZED is the Cadillac of small format mixer boards. The Tascam isn't in the same league. It ain't even a Lincoln Town Car. Think Caprice Classic.

What you need to do-and take this the way it's meant-RELAX FOOL! You're running around like chicken little wasting your energy and exasperation on this. I know you're anxious to get started and once the buying lust is released it is difficult to contain but you'll be lots better off staying the course with your original plan of going for the ZED. Unless you want to wait for the Zed 24. In the meantime keep saving your pennies because you still have to pay for the damn thing.

ocdstudios Sat, 04/17/2010 - 21:15

Just an update - and thanks for all the advice guys!

I bought a zed r16 from a gearslutz member in the UK - no issues board and is mint - all org. packaging and accesories.

Now if I could just get this sound treatment done and my new desk in I'll be good to go! I'll have to post some pics of the new setup. Thanks again guys for all your help!!!

Matt

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