Sold off some stuff! Found a great deal on GS I couldn't pass up...Dangerous ST will be here by Tues.!! Gonna cable up and do some real comparing for myself. I'm sure it will be very subjective, but that is where it is at for me right now. DonnyThompson...any results worth posting??

So how do I get wifey convinced this was absolutely necessary?? Oh well.
Namaste

Not yet - and it's not because I don't want to, either, because I really do.

But I got side-tracked this past week - no pun intended :p - with recording another song that's on the album, and as well with the weekend being here, so are a few solo gigs I have to go work.

I hope to have a 2 DAW workflow mix to post at the top of the week... hopefully. Every time I start to set this up, something else more pressing interrupts... but I am gonna do it. I just need to find a spare hour or two - somewhere. Time is tight these days, with the album deadline looming ever closer, and me feeling the strain of that. ( I'm positive that other guys here have experienced this - the last 2 weeks or so before the project goes to mastering... it's murder - you listen to finished mixes, stuff you put into the can months ago, and you start to second guess yourself... with everything, and you find yourself listening to the tiniest details, and wondering if you've done the best job you can all the way around.)

Even as I type this post, I'm just killing a little time while waiting on a render for an arrangement proof/draft mix of another song. ;)

I look forward to what you will be doing, though. As far as convincing the wife - well, you're barking up the wrong tree here... LOL.

I can send you blueprints for a pretty comfortable dog house though. ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 429862, member: 46114 wrote: Not yet - and it's not because I don't want to, either, because I really do.

But I got side-tracked this past week - no pun intended :p - with recording another song that's on the album, and as well with the weekend being here, so are a few solo gigs I have to go work.

I hope to have a 2 DAW workflow mix to post at the top of the week... hopefully. Every time I start to set this up, something else more pressing interrupts... but I am gonna do it. I just need to find a spare hour or two - somewhere. Time is tight these days, with the album deadline looming ever closer, and me feeling the strain of that. ( I'm positive that other guys here have experienced this - the last 2 weeks or so before the project goes to mastering... it's murder - you listen to finished mixes, stuff you put into the can months ago, and you start to second guess yourself... with everything, and you find yourself listening to the tiniest details, and wondering if you've done the best job you can all the way around.)

Even as I type this post, I'm just killing a little time while waiting on a render for an arrangement proof/draft mix of another song. ;)

"Side tracked"! I love it!
Guess it's better to be too busy than not enough work these days! You sure don't let any grass grow under your feet.
I know what you mean about going back to "finished" work. The little I've done draws me back in all the time! I guess it's just never done, always tweaking...new day, new ears!

DonnyThompson, post: 429863, member: 46114 wrote: I look forward to what you will be doing, though. As far as convincing the wife - well, you're barking up the wrong tree here... LOL.

I can send you blueprints for a pretty comfortable dog house though. ;)

Gotta build one more shed this summer...perhaps a little extension with your blueprints is in order? Actually, she's the best! She said she loves it when I buy gear, gives her permission go shopping!Hmmmmm!LOL!
The ST should be here Monday and then I'll be reconfiguring my patchbays and building cables. Ah the smell of hot solder and burning eyes!

vibrations1951, post: 429861, member: 34341 wrote: So how do I get wifey convinced this was absolutely necessary?? Oh well.

Mine recently started to buy more stuff for the house when I spend for the studio and of course I need to pay my part..
Giving that she has a better salary than me, my budget doesn't like it at all ;)

vibrations1951, post: 429231, member: 34341 wrote: Got 10% off on a new Antelope Pure2! $1975.50 lighter and "...feeling like a June bride! Know I'm gettin' it just not exactly sure when!" Time to sell anything not nailed down.
Thanks for sticking with me Chris. And many thanks to Bos, Donny, Kurt and Ethan as well for your posts and comments. All good info to help me decide where I'm going for now.
I'll post once it's up and running or if I need some help before then.
Namaste

This looks excellent. I may have to buy one. How do you like it?
Did you get the ST?

audiokid, post: 430177, member: 1 wrote: This looks excellent. I may have to buy one. How do you like it?
Did you get the ST?

Hey Chris. Funny you should ask! Just yesterday I finally received the last bits of cabling I needed for the rest of the setup (no time and too anxious to build them all right now). Yes I did get a used ST so hopefully I can get it all up and running this weekend. I had a cobbled up patchbay arrangement to get by before and this forced me to clean it all up, put in better cables and of course redesign my signal routing. No small task but a challenge I always enjoy on a rainy day! I'm kinda sick that way!

The Pure2 seems to have made an immediate positive difference in clarity! (No shilling here either!!) I don't have the ears or experience of you guys but I'm just thrilled!! It feels like my limited gear performs like it should now, or my ability to discern changes notched up radically, or all the above! I don't know if I'm making sense or this is just wishful thinking....but? I'm excited to do more accurate comparisons with the ST patched in. It's been hard to compare, having to continually patch and repatch to hear changes. The limits of my listening environment and speakers play a big role in my comparisons as well, yet just the little testing I've done so far with the Pure2 makes me believe I'll hear some significant differences.

I'll be subjectively comparing the Box1-2-bus (Nuendo4>Aurora16) output, the Mxr (Mix wiz) 2-bus fed by Box1-2-bus/Box1 stems/Box1-12 mono channels all summed through the mxr 2-bus, Box1-2-bus directly through the Pure2, then all possibilities through Box2 DAW (Audacity) etc. etc.!
Hmmmmm....not sure I got all the possible routings but any way, I know you get it and this should be interesting. I also plan to set up some SR conversions but this will take a bit longer, starting with tracking at higher rates than I usually have done and getting a little more familiar with Audacity.

Soooo many possibilities and so little time. The more time I allocate towards funding the studio the less time I have to work it!! I'm grateful I'm moving ahead at all! Not complaining, just getting more impatient as I get closer to doing this full time. I feel this uncoupled 2Box process with good switchable monitoring is just exactly what I need to be doing right now to help me move closer to decisions about the separate roles a Hybrid rig and Analog Summing will play for me.

I don't think I will be able to ultimately say what could be superior for others but the time and money I have invested so far feels well spent. This seems like a very cost effective and efficient way to sort this all out for me, with my ears, my gear, in my listening spaces, on my limited budget. It seems that I can get some good comparing done of different hardware and software without breaking the bank or redesigning everything just to try it out with what I have now.

Thanks so much Chris for getting me to this point. It certainly seems a big and powerful way to do what I need to right now for my process. I can't speak for others but I will report my humble process and look forward to further guidance and other's experiments. So DonnyThompson ..you seem really busy but I just wondered about any opportunity you have had yet to do so uncoupling experimenting??Tweak!

vibrations1951, post: 430194, member: 34341 wrote: So [[url=http://[/URL]="http://recording.or…"]DonnyThompson[/]="http://recording.or…"]DonnyThompson[/] ..you seem really busy but I just wondered about any opportunity you have had yet to do so uncoupling experimenting??Tweak!

It's not that I don't want to, Vibe. I do... in fact, I really do. It's just that right now, I'm just so hard-pressed for time these days - I need to make full use of the time I have left, which leaves little time for anything else, especially for any "experimentation" time.

That being said, I don't doubt - not one bit - the quality and integrity of Chris's ( audiokid ) 2-DAW workflow.
But for right now, I need to work in a flow that I am familiar with. I need to do what I know how to do, because every hour counts right now, when it comes to meeting this deadline that I am under.

It's gotten to the point where I've told my girlfriend to not even tidy up in my studio until this project is finished - LOL - because I have everything exactly the way that I need it to be right now.
Plus, there's the superstitious side of me, being so close to finishing, that I don't want her to possibly change any of the "vibe" that's in my room right now. And that means "don't take my coffee cup to the kitchen! I will take it myself."

It also means that the 3 cables on the floor behind me - two 1/4" and one XLR - absolutely must remain in their precise location. It doesn't matter that they aren't even connected to anything.
Do not touch the cables. Do not look at the cables. In fact, don't even think of the cables. They are a very small - but obviously critical - piece of a very large cosmic jigsaw puzzle.

There is a purpose for them that perhaps only the universe knows... And Ours Is Not To Reason Why!

I cannot, nae, I will not have anyone or anything interrupting the vibe, the force..... The Ju-Ju. ;)

Oh man... I think I need some sleep. :confused:

d.

DonnyThompson, post: 430198, member: 46114 wrote: It's gotten to the point where I've told my girlfriend to not even tidy up in my studio until this project is finished - LOL - because I have everything exactly the way that I need it to be right now.
Plus, there's the superstitious side of me, being so close to finishing, that I don't want her to possibly change any of the "vibe" that's in my room right now. And that means "don't take my coffee cup to the kitchen! I will take it myself."

It also means that the 3 cables on the floor behind me - two 1/4" and one XLR - absolutely must remain in their precise location. It doesn't matter that they aren't even connected to anything.
Do not touch the cables. Do not look at the cables. In fact, don't even think of the cables. They are a very small - but obviously critical - piece of a very large cosmic jigsaw puzzle.

There is a purpose for them that perhaps only the universe knows... And Ours Is Not To Reason Why!

I cannot, nae, I will not have anyone or anything interrupting the vibe, the force..... The Ju-Ju. ;)

Oh man... I think I need some sleep. :confused:

d.

ROFL!!!! I hear ya loud and clear!! May "The Ju-Ju" be with you!
namaste

audiokid Question time. I know you've looked at the Folcrom and I believe you have used the Dangerous 2-bus summing rig.

I'm considering using my mixer for tracking only right now and not using it for summing and going with the Folcrom or the Dangerous 16 in 2-bus instead.
If I go with the Folcrom it will require make-up gain in most circumstances but with uncoupling, would the gain in my DAW2 suffice. I believe my Pure 2 will accept and pass the mic level from the Folcrom OK. Am I thinking correctly here?

Or, I do have the 2-610 and a 2 channel RPQ which of course would impart their own colors, which isn't a bad thing but not something I would want all the time. If I went with the 2 LEVR's ( I have a 500 box with 5 spaces open right now) designed for a Folcrom which I might get used for around $400, the LEVR's would add another $700 but produce a pretty clean signal to Box 2.

Or would I be better off with the Dangerous 2-bus summer?
Or should I save a bit longer and try to pick up a cleaner 2 channel pre?
Any thoughts Chris?

vibrations1951, post: 430389, member: 34341 wrote: I know you've looked at the Folcrom and I believe you have used the Dangerous 2-bus summing rig.

I used the Dangerous Master for a 2-bus mastering console after the SPL MixDream and/or SPL Neos for summing consoles.

vibrations1951, post: 430389, member: 34341 wrote: If I go with the Folcrom it will require make-up gain in most circumstances but with uncoupling, would the gain in my DAW2 suffice. I believe my Pure 2 will accept and pass the mic level from the Folcrom OK. Am I thinking correctly here?

For technical, Boswell is the guy to advice you on this. The benefit of the Folcrom comes when you use it to get various flavors from various pre's. I'm planning to use it for a very specific sound. I am (currently) only interested in the Millennia M-2b / Folcrom for this.

vibrations1951, post: 430389, member: 34341 wrote: Or would I be better off with the Dangerous 2-bus summer?
Or should I save a bit longer and try to pick up a cleaner 2 channel pre?
Any thoughts Chris?

I'm in the camp that a tracking console is a step backwards as a hybrid summing solution so kudo's on that decision. However, this is based on having all your "bells and whistles" in place and the mindset that you get colour, through insertions when you want.
Not everyone believes this so take it with a grain of salt.

I would track into your console or favourite pre > AD > DAW > multichannel DA > summing amp (examples: DM 2-bus, SPL MixDream, Folcrom etc) > 2-bus AD > DAW2 > DA > Dangerous Monitor ST.
NOTE if you can: Connect the Dangerous Monitor ST to each analog monitor out section of your chain. You have 3 inputs for this.

Through detailed tests of my own, I am no longer using analog gear to mix but still appreciating stems through various summing consoles like the DM 2-Bus, SPL MixDream, Neos, Folcrom. Clean big rail amps are all I would use but I can't advise you not to use transformers because, depending on the sound you are going for, you may want to reduce the bandwidth, distort a stem(s) here or there or on the entire 2-bus. Until you get really familiar, only you will know whats best for you. Connecting various comps, EQ's... becomes a very fluid and al la carte solution to summing. Its not something you hear or find "right for you" over a weekend.

I will advise you on this though, If I was starting out, I would always start with big rail transparent summing solutions. You can always add hardware with transformers and tubes on a stem(s) or 2-bus. You can always degrade your signal path so this is why people prefer transparent summing to coloured.
Also, since you already have a console... If you want colour, your tracking console will do that already. Summing into it again, will double the colour (twice as much smearing) .

Contrary to the belief analog expands, makes music bigger, I am 100% convinced, it does the opposite. But that doesn't mean its a bad thing, its just not for every track imho, if for any of your tracks for that matter.

When I am mixing my own music, I would use less analog gear in a mix because I use excellent analog tracking gear.
If I am mixing for other people, I may use analog gear to help soften or smear something that I cannot do as well ITB.

Make sense?

This is a big topic from this point on.

audiokid, post: 430390, member: 1 wrote: I used the Dangerous Master for a 2-bus mastering console after the SPL MixDream and/or SPL Neos for summing consoles.

For technical, Boswell is the guy to advice you on this. The benefit of the Folcrom comes when you use it to get various flavors from various pre's. I'm planning to us it for a very specific sound. (currently) I only am interested in the Millennia M-2b / Folcrom for this.

I'm in the camp that a tracking console is a step backwards as a hybrid summing solution so kudo's on that decision.
I would track into your console or favourite pre > AD > DAW > multichannel DA > summing amp (examples: DM 2-bus, SPL MixDream, Folcrom etc) > 2-bus AD > DAW2 > DA > Dangerous Monitor ST.
NOTE if you can: Connect the Dangerous Monitor ST to each analog monitor out section of your chain. You have 3 inputs for this.

Through detailed tests of my own, I am no longer using analog gear to mix but still appreciating stems through various summing consoles like the DM 2-Bus, SPL MixDream, Neos, Folcrom. Clean big rail amps are all I would use but I can't advise you not to use transformers because, depending on the sound you are going for, you may want to reduce the bandwidth, distort a stems here or there.

I will advise you on this though, If I was starting out, I would always start with big rail transparent summing solutions. You can always add hardware with transformers on a stem(s) or 2-bus. You can always degrade your signal path but you cannot remove it so this is why people prefer transparent summing to coloured. If you want colour, your tracking console will do that already. Summing into it again, will double the colour (twice as much smearing) .

Make sense?

This is a big topic from this point on.

Thanks for the quick reply Chris. Makes lots of sense. I think I'm getting this more and more all the time!
I don't think I can go wrong with the Folcrom to start. I may have to use my pres for a little while until I can get a couple of the LEVR's. I'd get those without the transformers to keep it clean as possible. I agree about transparent summing. Perhaps Bos will chime in as well.
Namaste

This continues to be very exciting and I'm still feeling like I'm on the right path. Thanks so much once again Chris.

pleasure.

vibrations1951, post: 430389, member: 34341 wrote: I'm considering using my mixer for tracking only right now and not using it for summing and going with the Folcrom or the Dangerous 16 in 2-bus instead.
If I go with the Folcrom it will require make-up gain in most circumstances but with uncoupling, would the gain in my DAW2 suffice. I believe my Pure 2 will accept and pass the mic level from the Folcrom OK. Am I thinking correctly here?

The Folcrom has a nominal output level of -35dBu. The Pure2 has a nominal +4dBu input level with 16dB headroom, but can be adjusted to be 12dB more sensitive, i.e. nominal -8dBu. That still leaves a 27dB level gap, so you could not say these two units are compatible without additional gain.

If you want to persue the Folcrom-Pure2 route, then you would need to look for accurate, transparent (uncoloured) gain in a form that is not designed solely for amplifying microphone signals. A recommendation for this function would be the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.davelect…"]DAV BG-1[/]="http://www.davelect…"]DAV BG-1[/].

Boswell, post: 430403, member: 29034 wrote: The Folcrom has a nominal output level of -35dBu. The Pure2 has a nominal +4dBu input level with 16dB headroom, but can be adjusted to be 12dB more sensitive, i.e. nominal -8dBu. That still leaves a 27dB level gap, so you could not say these two units are compatible without additional gain.

If you want to persue the Folcrom-Pure2 route, then you would need to look for accurate, transparent (uncoloured) gain in a form that is not designed solely for amplifying microphone signals. A recommendation for this function would be the [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.davelect…"]DAV BG-1[/]="http://www.davelect…"]DAV BG-1[/].

Thanks Bos, that's very helpful. Apparently the LEVR, a 500 series unit, was designed specifically for the Folcrom makeup gain purpose but it is not a mic pre as well like the BG-1. Hmmmmmm, I'll have to think on this a bit more. Would be nice to have a good clean 2 channel pre onboard.

This isn't tech related but I was wondering if you knew much about the tax (VAT)? Out of curiosity, If I were to purchase a BG-1 used from England or new for that matter, would I end up paying the VAT as well? Probably not a fair question to ask you but the internet searches on this seem a bit vague and I just wondered if you might have experience with this??
Thanks so much

vibrations1951, post: 430408, member: 34341 wrote: This isn't tech related but I was wondering if you knew much about the tax (VAT)? Out of curiosity, If I were to purchase a BG-1 used from England or new for that matter, would I end up paying the VAT as well? Probably not a fair question to ask you but the internet searches on this seem a bit vague and I just wondered if you might have experience with this?

Value Added Tax (VAT, currently 20% in the UK) is straightforward: items bought and shipped for delivery overseas from a VAT-registered UK trader or dealer (such as KMR Audio in this case) would be free of VAT, so you would pay about 17% less than the UK personal customer price. Items bought from a non VAT-registered trader (e.g. most individuals selling on Ebay) have VAT included in the traded price, as the tax will have been paid on the item at the point of original purchase. In this case it does not make any difference whether the goods stay in the UK or shipped overseas, and VAT cannot normally be reclaimed on subsequent export.

These rules are applied irrespective of whether the items are new or second-hand. Other European countries have to apply exactly the same principles, but may have their own different rates of VAT.

Goods bought from the UK or elsewhere in Europe for shipment to the US will be subject to relevant US import duties and/or Sales Taxes, and these apply to the value of the shipment (including carriage) at the point of entry into the US.

Boswell, post: 430413, member: 29034 wrote: Value Added Tax (VAT, currently 20% in the UK) is straightforward: items bought and shipped for delivery overseas from a VAT-registered UK trader or dealer (such as KMR Audio in this case) would be free of VAT, so you would pay about 17% less than the UK personal customer price. Items bought from a non VAT-registered trader (e.g. most individuals selling on Ebay) have VAT included in the traded price, as the tax will have been paid on the item at the point of original purchase. In this case it does not make any difference whether the goods stay in the UK or shipped overseas, and VAT cannot normally be reclaimed on subsequent export.

These rules are applied irrespective of whether the items are new or second-hand. Other European countries have to apply exactly the same principles, but may have their own different rates of VAT.

Goods bought from the UK or elsewhere in Europe for shipment to the US will be subject to relevant US import duties and/or Sales Taxes, and these apply to the value of the shipment (including carriage) at the point of entry into the US.

Thanks Bos. I called customs in the US and the best they could tell me is that if I bought items in the UK, the seller would be responsible for determining the customs/taxes due based upon their shipping method. Sounds circular to me....the ole' run around! I wouldn't think the seller should be responsible for determining US Fees. I purchased some studio door gasketing from Canada and had to come up with extra money to pay UPS before they could bring it into the US. It was a surprise to me at the time yet I understood and did not expect the seller to have been responsible for notifying me of this or the cost. Oh well.

Anyway, it doesn't look like the BG-1 is easy to find used. I think I will wait and look. The line I have on a Folcrom right now may work out and since I'm not doing commercial work yet, I can use the 2-610 and RPQ for now until I either find a BG-1 used, buy new or go with the JCF lever.

This will free up my Mix Wiz 16 for tracking and occasional sound reinforcement and likely be the best bang for my buck right now.
Namaste

Boswell
hey Bos, do you think the M-2b will be enough gain for the Folcrom or do you think I would require (I'm unclear about the DC booster for ribbons) but I believe I've read it give something like 70db gain . Page two says the version I have is 50db.
http://www.mil-media.com/pdf/M-2B_dataCLJ.pdf

Thanks

audiokid Boswell vibrations1951

Chris... ( or anyone else) I'm just asking because I'm curious, and I don't know the answer in your particular case... What would be the downside to using something like the Cloudlifter in your signal path to gain-up your ribbons or low output dynamics?

I know you prefer to keep your signal path as clear and transparent as possible, and from what I understand, the Cloudlifter isn't transformer based, but instead uses phantom power, and converts that voltage to additional mic gain ...of up to +25db...

I'm not telling or even suggesting. I'm asking what you think the result(s) would be. ;)

Max gain on the M-2B is 50dB, which should be fine for back-ending the Folcrom.

Sorry, Donny, I've lost the context. Where would you want to use the Cloudlifter?

It would be an interesting suggestion to put one on the output of the Folcrom for adding 25dB gain, but unfortunately it's not going to work for vibrations1951 as his Pure2 is not designed for microphone input and so does not provide phantom power.

I'm not totally struck on the Cloudlifter, as it does have a colour of its own. Those readers with long memories may recall that ages ago I talked about a similar device I had made long before the Cloudlifter came out. My unit was more "open" sounding, but I didn't take production of it any further as first the FetHead and then the Cloudlifter came on to the market within a year or so.

DonnyThompson audiokid Boswell
Bos, I just noticed you had posted before I posted this. Oh well, could you take a look anyway?
I hope I'm not high jacking the thread here...don't mean to...I think my inquiries here are in line with what Chris and Donny are asking about.

Bos, I understand why the Pure 2 needs more input power from the Folcrom but I apologize for not following the details of the math when going back and forth between dB and dBu no matter how many times I've tried to research the difference between the 2. This becomes very pertinent when I'm trying to decide on use of the Folcrom and what unit I might follow it with in the signal path...or maybe look closer at other summing devices/options.

Could you suggest a method for me to work an understanding of the two (dB verses dBu) when I'm trying to compare the possible ways to go with a clean summing stage?

So Chris and Donny, it seems like you are both trying to sort this equipment dilemma out as well when looking at different ways to boost the Folcrom or other output in as clean a way as possible (ie. no transformers). Chris, I'm with you on wanting as much juice as possible out of the summing stage. I want it as hot and clean (uncolored) as reasonably (cost factor here) possible for me.

I think I may hold off on the Folcrom right now because, with the uncoupled Box 1 to Box 2 arrangement, I don't see as much a gain in versatility using the Folcrom and having to add something to boost the output unless it is going to be a very clean pre like the M-2b you suggest Chris or the BG-1 you suggested Bos. I get the pre double duty thing but with my limited experience, I'm not sure if a clean pre will get me the clean power headroom I may need.

Donny, I use the Cloudlifter lots on SM57's and 58's for live sound, as well as the Triton Fethead and have often wondered about their use in other signal paths as well. I love the clean boost and headroom they give live and not bad in some tracking for band demos with the 57 and 58 (haven't tried with SM7 or ribbons yet). Looking forward to what Bos says about this.

Bos, I just noticed you had posted before I posted this. Oh well, could you take a look anyway?

vibrations1951, post: 430445, member: 34341 wrote: So Chris and Donny, it seems like you are both trying to sort this equipment dilemma out as well when looking at different ways to boost the Folcrom or other output in as clean a way as possible (ie. no transformers). Chris, I'm with you on wanting as much juice as possible out of the summing stage. I want it as hot and clean (uncolored) as reasonably (cost factor here) possible for me.

LOL.. I was actually speaking more in regard to my own lack of knowledge on the subject, and curious to know if something like the Cloudlifter would be a viable option. I wasn't really suggesting this to Chris, I was more curious to find out if it could be a good quality sonic solution in his scenario, and if not, why that would be.

audiokid, post: 430432, member: 1 wrote: "...or do you think I would require (I'm unclear about the DC booster for ribbons) but I believe I've read it give something like 70db gain . Page two says the version I have is 50db.

Forgive me if I led the topic astray... Chris had mentioned a lack of gain, and a DC Booster for Ribbons... I brought up the CL because I was curious to see if this might be something that would work if he wanted more gain.... but I may have stepped into this conversation without realizing that this wasn't what he actually meant, and if I did, I apologize.

LOL.. I'm gonna shut up now. ;)

Boswell, post: 430444, member: 29034 wrote: I'm not totally struck on the Cloudlifter, as it does have a colour of its own.

This is just one of the millions of reasons why I love this place. The advice and knowledge around here from guys like you is pure gold. :)

I would think that this would knock it off the list of possible options for those who are trying to stay as transparent as possible... and from what I've come to know, transparency is a huge thing with Chris.

I was under the impression that the CL was transparent due to its lack of transformers... but I sure as heck trust you a lot more than I trust the PR people at Cloudlifter. or anywhere else for that matter, either... ;)

LOL.. you don't happen to have a spare prototype of what you originally built knocking about and not being used, do you? LOL ;)

Boswell, post: 430444, member: 29034 wrote: It would be an interesting suggestion to put one on the output of the Folcrom for adding 25dB gain, but unfortunately it's not going to work for vibrations1951 as his Pure2 is not designed for microphone input and so does not provide phantom power.

So from what I'm gathering, if I go with a Folcrom, I might be better off putting in the 2 JCF LEVR 500's in line. (I have enough open slots in my 500 rack)
LEVR specs:
Maximum Output Level +28dBu
Distortion <.01% @ +4dBu, 0.025% @ +28dBu
Noise -79dBu (BW lim 80kHz)
Gain Variable from 0dB to ~+9dB

That way, when/if I decide I need a pre "color" on the 2-bus before the Pure 2 I wouldn't have to worry about enough makeup gain from that pre with the LEVR doing the majority work and I would have more headroom before the Pure 2 to play with.

So if my reasoning is correct here, some options for me are:
1. Folcrom and 2 LEVR 's (Then add pres for "color" as desired before Pure 2)
2. Folcrom and a "clean"/"colored" 2 channel pre with at least 28dBu output
3. An alternative summing box with at least 28dBu clean output for the pure 2

DonnyThompson, post: 430446, member: 46114 wrote: Forgive me if I led the topic astray... Chris had mentioned a lack of gain, and a DC Booster for Ribbons... I brought up the CL because I was curious to see if this might be something that would work if he wanted more gain.... but I may have stepped into this conversation without realizing that this wasn't what he actually meant, and if I did, I apologize.

LOL.. I'm gonna shut up now. ;)

Hey Donny, I'm glad you brought it up because I was heading that way with my particular case because of the Pure 2 I'm using. Bos's response helped me out a bunch!
Thanks and please don't shut up! What a hoot! LOL!
Namaste

Boswell, post: 430443, member: 29034 wrote: Max gain on the M-2B is 50dB, which should be fine for back-ending the Folcrom.

Thanks.

Boswell

Specifically to do with this discussion and how a pre effects the phase, these are the specs for the M-2b.
What does this all mean or relate to passive summing?

M-2b

Phase Response
35 dB Gain, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, +26 dBu Out
< 10 degrees deviation

Phase Response, Stereo Deviation
35 dB Gain, 20 Hz - 40 kHz, +27 dBu Out
< 1 degree

Assuming I'm somewhat understanding these specs and lingo, I'm also thinking the 10 degree deviation is a lot to do with the tube swing? The stereo deviation is 1 degree so would the sum be shifting 1 degree from center either way?

I find it interesting that we don't commonly find specs like this on other pre's, Kudo's for Millennia for being more "transparent" with their specs.

My love for the M-2b is based on tracking. It really is incredible but the big question is, how will it sum up now. I'm expecting good to excellent for what I'm shooting for.(DonnyThompson ) but not so much absolute pure transparency in this case. I'm looking for a tube glow in my sound. The M-2b is transformerless but with tubes.

I'm wondering how the D.A.V phase deviation is in comparison?

Thanks again Bos :)

Several points here:

(1) If I'm reading the specs correctly, I don't see the JCF LEVR 500 as a useful voltage make-up device for the Folcrom. It appears to be a transresistance amplifier, i.e. current in to voltage out, and is meant for summing on its own. It's possible that it could be configured as a voltage amplifier by inserting additional input resistors, but my guess is that for a 27dB gain they would be a bit low in value for the Folcrom to drive acceptably.

(2) dB and dBu:
dB is a ratio, and is used for expressing gain (or attenuation if -ve) in the sense of by how much one quantity is greater than another of the same type (units).

dBu is an absolute value, just like Volts. 0dBu is the signal amplitude required to dissipate 1mW in a 600 Ohm load. When the load actually is 600 Ohm, the unit is usually given as dBm rather than dBu, but is the same numerical value. The "u" in dBu stands for "unterminated", i.e. with no load or, at least, not a defined load.

(3) The Cloudlifter: I don't want to disparage this product, since it's great for things like ribbon microphone boosting. However, it's not a "piece of wire with gain", and so one has to be careful when considering it for areas that fall outside its intended usage.

(4) I don't understand the need to go to +28dBuFS for driving the Pure 2. Its FS input range is settable from +8dBu to +24dBu.

audiokid, post: 430453, member: 1 wrote: Specifically to do with this discussion and how a pre effects the phase, these are the specs for the M-2b.
What does this all mean or relate to passive summing?

M-2b

Phase Response
35 dB Gain, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, +26 dBu Out
< 10 degrees deviation

Phase Response, Stereo Deviation
35 dB Gain, 20 Hz - 40 kHz, +27 dBu Out
< 1 degree

Assuming I'm somewhat understanding these specs and lingo, I'm also thinking the 10 degree deviation is a lot to do with the tube swing? The stereo deviation is 1 degree so would the sum be shifting 1 degree from center either way?

I find it interesting that we don't commonly find specs like this on other pre's, Kudo's for Millennia for being more "transparent" with their specs.

My love for the M-2b is based on tracking. It really is incredible but the big question is, how will it sum up now. I'm expecting good to excellent for what I am shooting for but not so much absolute pure transparency in this case. I'm looking for an tube glo in my mix. The M-2b is transformerless but with tubes.

I'm wondering how the D.A.V phase deviation is in comparison?

Thanks again Bos :)

The numbers are impressive, but not complete in themselves. What they mean is that the phase-shift through the M2-B is almost constant over the audio frequency range, and that the channels match very closely. However, they do not say how much the constant phase shift actually is, but it may be zero, given that the upper 3dB point is 130KHz. The other significant point is whether there is much variation in the figures over the gain range.

I've not seen figures for other amplifiers published in this way, so it's not easy to make commercial comparisons. I had a quick glance back at the lab test results from a couple of the designs I have been involved with, and the headline data on both of them was not quite as good as these published figures for the M2-b, but it wasn't far off at the most favourable gain setting.

I read that the JCF LEVR is advertised as a makeup gain for the Folcrom so I must be misunderstanding it's use.
Thanks for the input on dB verses dBu. I'm still foggy on it but I will research more .
I agree that the Cloudlifter adds it's own thing and I've been careful to not use it beyond it's design purposes. I don't know enough and I could be very dangerous at best.

Boswell, post: 430403, member: 29034 wrote: The Folcrom has a nominal output level of -35dBu. The Pure2 has a nominal +4dBu input level with 16dB headroom, but can be adjusted to be 12dB more sensitive, i.e. nominal -8dBu. That still leaves a 27dB level gap, so you could not say these two units are compatible without additional gain.

Bos, I guess I'm in way over my head here and should back up. I understood the above to mean that I would need a pre or something similar to make up the "27dBu gap."

I'm sorry my lack of knowledge and experience is clouding the water and bogging down this thread. I'm learning but ever so slowly. Thanks for your patience and input.

I'm back to thinking that the used Folcrom purchase will allow me to take my Mix Wiz out of the mix down path. Then I can use my AEA RPQ 2 channel ribbon pre for now to feed the Pure 2.

vibrations1951, post: 430460, member: 34341 wrote: I understood the above to mean that I would need a pre or something similar to make up the "27dBu gap."

Ah, but I wrote "27dB" and not "27dBu"!

27dB represents an additional voltage gain of about x22, so you would indeed need to have at least this amount of additional gain in the system between the Folcrom output and the Pure 2 input.

Boswell, post: 430461, member: 29034 wrote: Ah, but I wrote "27dB" and not "27dBu"!

27dB represents an additional voltage gain of about x22, so you would indeed need to have at least this amount of additional gain in the system between the Folcrom output and the Pure 2 input.

Arrrrgh....I'm sorry. Thanks so much for clarifying. Yup, I'll crawl back into my hole again and continue learning.
Namaste

Well I pulled the trigger on the Folcrom! Big bang for the buck, frees up my mixer some and it should serve me well with my pres. Learning curve time again.
Namaste

http://www.prosound…’s-out-with-the-big-iron-for-veneto-west/19600

“The big thing that changed was realizing that holding onto the console was ultimately doing a disservice to my clients,” says Murphy, who notes that clients almost universally now expect instant recall. - See more at: http://www.prosound…’s-out-with-the-big-iron-for-veneto-west/19600#sthash.6pIrDNMr.dpuf

lol, as he is just getting onto this now, we are quietly talking about this...
Love it ;)
Good for him.

He is mentioning a Mac Mini. I wonder if we are going to be hearing something on the 10M next. I don't think that is the best solution for hybrid but its compact enough.

Then there is Max who just dropped a big wad on a console. Go figure.... we are all chasing the dream. :love:

vibrations1951, post: 430464, member: 34341 wrote: Well I pulled the trigger on the Folcrom! Big bang for the buck, frees up my mixer some and it should serve me well with my pres. Learning curve time again.
Namaste

I have one coming now too!

audiokid, post: 430469, member: 1 wrote: I have one coming now too!

Alrighty now! Congrats! Even though it is a kind of conservative little piece of equipment I'm in hopes it can be a great tool! In my older age I appreciate the less is more for many reasons. This is gonna be fun! I'm pumped!

I really look forward to your results. With your experience using such a variety of gear and ability to isolate the performance of each unit as well as critical listening skills, I'm very excited to hear your results. I do realize that my ears, listening environment, skills, equipment, software, signal path as well as personal tastes will all have an impact on my experience with the Folcrom. But even that said, comparing notes will help me lots if you are willing. Besides, it should be fun!
Namaste

indeed!

(y)

Now this is interesting. Dangerous Music has discontinued making the 2-Bus.
http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/2-bus-0

If DM was thinking like me, they would make a 32 channel version, with the Monitor ST and Convert included.

These summing boxes are missing the ability to simply connect your DAW to them and start stem mixing. By including an independent monitor controller (yes it could be included) , they would serve themselves well because people would soon learn how this improves the entire experience of OTB mixing.
My hybrid system wasn't complete until I took a chance and got the DM ST. If I didn't know these guys, I would not have asked them to send me one, thus I may have never learned what the Dangerous experience was truly all about.

I'm hoping they are planning something new like this!

audiokid, post: 430762, member: 1 wrote: Now this is interesting. Dangerous Music has discontinued making the 2-Bus.
http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/2-bus-0

If DM was thinking like me, they would make a 32 channel version, with the Monitor ST and Convert included.

These summing boxes are missing the ability to simply connect your DAW to them and start stem mixing. By including an independent monitor controller (yes it could be included) , they would serve themselves well because people would soon learn how this improves the entire experience of OTB mixing.
My hybrid system wasn't complete until I took a chance and got the DM ST. If I didn't know these guys, I would not have asked them to send me one, thus I may have never learned what the Dangerous experience was truly all about.

I'm hoping they are planning something new like this!

This will be interesting to see where they go next. This old head of mine swirls with the pace of change these days! Has your Folcrom arrived yet? My used one did and after a bit of going over (cleaning switch contacts, changing impedence switch for daisy chaining) it's up and running. I'm using my 2 channel AEA RPQ pre at about 40 dB to send the signals directly into the Pure2 and DAW 2 for now. Wish I had more damn time to sit with this all for about a week and do nothing else!!

Chris, you are so right about having a great monitor like the ST to do comparing. Right now, during tracking I can monitor my mixer before DAW 1, my DAW 1 off the Aurora, and Daw 2 from the Pure 2, all at the push of a button! Comparing heaven for me! The challenging trick for me at this point is developing proper gain staging for my multiple signal paths. (for doing more accurate comparisons as well as processing) This is a work in progress and I'm learning a lot as I go. I feel like I'm getting a handle on this but I would really appreciate any suggestions you or others might have.

In my limited experience over the years in audio, gain staging has always been extremely important to me. I learned early on the hard way through toasted components and ugly distorted signals just how important it can be! I also learned the value of doing it well by ending up with clarity and headroom when I got it right. That was mostly the analog world. I'm trying to follow digital parameters by keeping peaks around -12dB ITB and sending out and this new uncoupled signal path and monitoring capabilities is a whole new ball game in many ways...not a bad thing though! Just kinda "Deja Vous all over again"!

Sorry I'm rambling a bit here. I do really love the Folcrom, the ST and 2Box uncoupling and am anxious to get the time to put it through it's paces! I want to take this methodically so I get a good handle on each stage of learning to build on. Uncoupling adds so many more variables (in a really good way I feel) and I want to be sure I'm building a solid foundation of knowledge, structure and experience with it each step of the way. So for now audiokid, DonnyThompson, Boswell,Kurt Foster , or others... any suggestions about gain staging related to this process would be greatly appreciated if you have the time. I'm not asking for tutorials, perhaps just nuggets you've picked up related to this way of doing things. Does this make sense?

Namaste