This is a loaded question that will end up in the good, better best debate because everyone has a reason. For me, I use specific converters for a variety of reasons. What are you doing ?

building a new ITB styled project Studio. Here is what I have purchased so far.

SSL Alpha Link MADI AX
also
PRO-TOOLs HD Rig

The primary software is on the NUENDO platform but as you can see we will be running pro-tools too.

We have a academic program that teaches Audio Recording, so we will use Pro-Tools as a part of our academic scheme. It looks good on the resume when the kids graduate. As far as the professional side of our working studio we will be using NUENDO to Mix the various projects that come through.

Being a Loaded question is no problem for me, I want to hear what people use and why they use it.

BTW: I am planning on posting a thread that will show this studio being built step by step. Pictures and Videos will be provided.

http://www.sweetwat… Solid State Logic XLogic Alpha-Link MADI AX |

Looks nice. So you need 24 IO at 96k; looks like a a good choice to me. Don't forget about monitoring and the DA side of that. This is a big part often overlooked or not taken serious enough. I use the Dangerous Monitor ST. Anyone that owns that box learns more about mixing just by having it.

There is a new 32 channel just arriving on the scene by Antelope called the Orion 32. Its 32 ADDA USB / MADI. It looks cool but no one knows much about it. I have one coming here in Feb to test.
Since you already have the SSL Alpha Link MADI AX, what more do you need to know?

Converters I use are

RME ADI-8 QS
Lavry Blacks
Prism Orpheus

They work good for me.
I've read RME UFX is another great Box and Lynx Aurora's are another very popular one.

I'm bias to using an HDSP AES PCIe interface for larger track counts and MIDI but their are people loving Avid, Apogee stuff too! I have know idea..

I'm on PC, not Apple.
I choose PC products over Apple dependent.

If you aren't summing OTB you have less concerns for latency in the audio (I think), maybe not MIDI though. I use hybrid methods so my requirements are different.

Hope that helps. Looking forward to your progress here. Its sounds very interesting!

i have no experience w/ outboard converter boxes, but fwiw

apogee converter card option for mackie D8B. -it sounds pretty full and clear.

Motu pcie (2408mk2), cuz there built in, and sound nice.

m-audio - cuz i'm stuck w/ them in my personal buget interface lol

looking forward to the studio build thread!

jackmeriustacktheratrix, post: 399279 wrote: What is the Best A/D Converter

The only possible answer to this question is "what do YOUR ears tell you?"

Otherwise it's like asking someone what the best color is.....

Blue Bear Sound, post: 399333 wrote: The only possible answer to this question is "what do YOUR ears tell you?"

Otherwise it's like asking someone what the best color is.....

Bruce, nice website and great looking studio BTW!

I use cheap run-of-the-mill converters by M-Audio, Edirol/Roland, MOTU, Avid and an ALESIS HD-24 XR. But the front end is all Neve & API and nothing has any microphone inputs on those converters except that Digi/Avid which I would only use under duress LOL. I wouldn't mind having a top shelf converter but everything sounds great anyhow already. So why bother? No one complained about first-generation 16-bit converters when that's all we had. And so even the cheap, entry-level, 24-bit/96 kHz converters of virtually any variety far outperform those early converters that still made some great sounding recordings. And that's because the front ends were all superb. That's what really establishes the texture and caliber of your sound. Better converters will always make things sound better. It all depends on how much real money you want to throw at them? I mean what good does a great converter do for you if your front end and your microphones are already a compromise? So I say go for the better microphones and preamps first. Then worry about your converters. More people will hear the difference when great microphones and preamps are utilized then they will with just great converters and less than a top shelf input arrangement. So I go for the sound first and foremost before I worry about the technical blah blah. It all depends on the color you want to invoke on your product you deliver. And I don't believe in delivering completely neutered and neutralized audio. So if you don't want colorful quality audio, go for the cheap stuff. Or go for the expensive stuff that will do the same thing as the cheap stuff? And especially if it's rock 'n roll. Symphonic and operatic recordings are something different from the average norm. And I approach those differently. Still with the same cheap converters and the same front end and microphones. And it still sounds like God is always smiling upon me. If the client wants to get technical about things, let them make the recording. People hire me because they get a quality professional product. My converters are adequate. Good equipment doesn't make you a better engineer. Though it might impress other engineers? Who's the bulk of your audience?

It's all in the mix.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Kmetal, audiokid, REMY,
Thank you all for taking the time to respond to this post. Your input is valuable and I appreciate it.

blue bear: your comment cracks me up... I can see you must be the great philosopher of the group. Thats cool by me, I appreciate you taking the time. However, I would disagree for this specific instance. The question was what do you think...? I think most simple minded people can gather that the question in general is subjective but I don't think that most simple minded people can answer the question. So that is why I haven't asked the simple minded for the answers... I have come to you guys :-) And everyone knows that BLUE is the BEST color, no way that could be subjective.thumb

Remy, I am with you all the way. We may make a far more out of the converters than we should and if the front end sucks and you have great sounding converters I will probably hear how much it sucks even better, right? ok, thats probably overstated, I have melodyne, I can make anything sound good. HA. Seriously though, your points are well taken.

Please keep in mind, I am doing research for what other Audiophiles and hopefully professionals are saying. I have been doing this gig for quite a while now so I have developed some pretty hard opinions along the way. However, I am not so old I can't learn some new tricks from guys like you all. For the last blankity blank years I have been mixing records and I haven't gotten out to much. Now I am teaching this stuff to a new and hungry generation of wanna be AE's so I gotta get out and put my ear to the ground. Thanks again for the help.
jt

I just ordered the Monitor ST. Looked nice so I thought I would give it a whirl. Thanks for the tip.

jackmeriustacktheratrix, post: 399375 wrote: I just ordered the Monitor ST. Looked nice so I thought I would give it a whirl. Thanks for the tip.

Nice move!

jackmeriustacktheratrix, post: 399374 wrote:
blue bear: your comment cracks me up... I can see you must be the great philosopher of the group. Thats cool by me, I appreciate you taking the time. However, I would disagree for this specific instance. The question was what do you think...? I think most simple minded people can gather that the question in general is subjective but I don't think that most simple minded people can answer the question. So that is why I haven't asked the simple minded for the answers... I have come to you guys :-) And everyone knows that BLUE is the BEST color, no way that could be subjective.thumb

I agree with you on the BLUE, but here's the thing....

No one EVER, in the history of audio recording, walked down the street humming the sound of the console, or the converters, or even the mics/pres...

As RemyRAD pointed out, gear doesn't make the engineer - the skills do. Gear only makes the job of getting good sound easier or harder.

One of my fave quote (by Harvey Gerst) sums it up nicely: "George Massenburg will get better results with a PortaStudio, than a monkey with a Neve."

audiokid, post: 399346 wrote: Bruce, nice website and great looking studio BTW!

Thanks for the kind words, BT!

The infamous converter debates are always a Pandora's box.

There are more than one reason I choose converters. Generalizing them all into a pool is not how I see it at all. And even though there are only a few chip makers out there, the design around it all separates one from the other. I love my converters like children.

I choose my converters for ease of switching between SR (ITB/OTB) and flying around between a few projects, the connections to and from, the driver stability for my OS, gain staging on both AD DA side, cascading more channels, the interface and Midi, latency, and sound too. Doesn't the clock have something to do with it all too?
adcs-what-is-important

I tried -------- converters in my hybrid set-up and sold them two weeks later. They work fine for the average guy but not the best for all. I also did an A/B between a few over others. Some are more metallic and dead sounding than others.
I have 3 brands for different tasks.

Once we all get past the ( its the engineer that makes the difference) gear and what its being used for does make a difference.

I absolutely agree, the gear makes a considerable difference. It's part of your planning within your preproduction and throughout the production for the sound in which you want to attain. And where I might change my engineering style to suit the production, you change your equipment to suit your workflow. We're all professionals here and no one really delivers a better professional product that another professional would. We have all risen above the students, enthusiast's and other wannabes in our careers.

I'm really with the Blue Bear and God knows, I'm freezing in the suburbs of Northern Virginia. Canada is the furthest thing from my mind right now LOL. I'm trying to envision myself, sitting on the beach and enjoying a piña colada. Yeah... that's what I need right about now. Geez... I just don't want to give up. Not yet. Not until I get a good sunburn.

Asian food all week so I better do a steak tonight? I can then finish off dinner with a steak knife to my wrists?
Mx. Remy Ann David

hehe. leave the knife on your plate.

If I could pack up and go south, where its warm and make a living, I think I'd sell the farm and move. I hate winter so much. But, I do like a wood stove, the clean feel and look of white snow, no bugs , Ice fishing on a sunning day to come home to my wife's homemade soup, then sipping on some 18 year old single malt by a fire and a game of chess. That's how I get through winter. Too bad I have to work .

Try Tucson Arizona. You won't break a sweat. 113°F and 50 minutes away, you're in Lemon Mountain looking at Snow. And then you can hop down to NOGALES, Mexico, another hour away for a real Mexican dinner. Made with real Mexican dog! Or so I was told LOL? Those dogs make excellent tasting tacos. A taste you just can't get here in the states.

I think I'm goin' to the outback? I need a bloomin' onion!
Mx. Remy Ann David

I have 3 brands for different tasks.

Wondering which ones your prefer to use for what? just curiosity.

kmetal, post: 399572 wrote: Wondering which ones your prefer to use for what? just curiosity.

I'm guessing you are asking me?

I'll try and say this simple. If you need more explaining, just ask. I don't have time to say this any better right now. :)

ADI-8 QS tracking and mixing OTB
Prism Orpheus Mastering
Lavry DA11 reference
Dangerous Monitor ST connects analog and the converters together like a star.

Ultimately we should use one converter of the highest order for the entire DA chain, including monitoring CD's and your online mix. My particular setup works because I have a proficient monitoring set-up and wonderful converters that meet the requirements for a 2 computer hybrid summing system. I don't do any SRC in the same session and I listen to my session on the mastering bus right before the CD spits out or goes online so its as accurate as its going to get anyway. If my mix suck its because of me. And that part I'm working lol.

I need 24 channels of AD DA with the lowest latency and a Midi interface for the main duties going ITB and OTB. I chose RME ADI-8 QS's and the HDSPe PCIe interface for this. The best sound quality converters I could afford with db25 I/O and on the fly gain stage settings for both sides with the most stable drivers on the market made those ones the obvious choice. They are excellent for switching sessions between 88.2 , 44.1 , 96, 44.1 whatever on the fly. In other words I can have multiple session running at different SR going on the same desktop no problem. It gets a big crazy but that's how I like it!
The analog monitor outs on the summing system connect the the Dangerous ST here as well. This makes it possible to "on the fly" comparisons in the analog domain.

Once I'm OTB, for all analog hybrid summing> 2-bus AD to a second computer and for this I use 2 channels of the Prism Orpheus and also monitor the entire rig from here ( which can be at any spot in the chain made possible from the Monitor ST. The Orpheus and the Monitor ST gets no better. The Orpheus also doubles as my mobile converters so that one was an easy decision. Mastering converters used for acoustic music recording.

My playback converter for referencing CD and online music goes through a Lavry DA11 which also connects to the Monitor ST. The DA11 is USB and is a stand alone with solid stereo imaging and precise gain and monitoring which I also use for recording online material. . It gets no better.

hey thanks for your time! i really love the concept of such versatility, and yet quality, usually it's one or the other. Seems like your really taking full advantage of the Monitor ST, i always wondered why you talked about that thing so much lol. now i see. Ya know, i have yet to hear a bad word spoken about the prism Orpheus. Cheers!

Pleasure.

The Monitor ST actually is an education. The guys at Dangerous built this thing from years of experience.

Engineers around the world that never have the opportunity to work with people like Chris Muth, how would you ever know what they do and how they listen and get it right. Well, when you buy products from guys like this, they are designed the way they would want it for themselves. Hense, why I shop and pay attention the the mastering guys, even if I'm not mastering.
You begin learning why they put this here and that there. The Monitor ST is the single most valued piece of gear I have ever owned. Its a giant asset to my studio. When I got that, it all starting making sense.

kmetal, post: 399582 wrote: hey thanks for your time! i really love the concept of such versatility, and yet quality, usually it's one or the other. Seems like your really taking full advantage of the Monitor ST, i always wondered why you talked about that thing so much lol. now i see. Ya know, i have yet to hear a bad word spoken about the prism Orpheus. Cheers!

Prism is wonderful and simple. I haven't use the pre's in it and I had it for almost a year! Next Month I am recording the Prince George City Choral Festival. The Orpheus is going on there.

RME ADI-8 QS are deadly. I love these.
Lavry, what can I say. I wish I had 24 of those going both ways. Lavry is smart engineering. I never go beyond 96k and that's where these stop. Lavry has a depth an openness, like the Orpheus. At this level, they all rock. It comes down to what do you need them for.

Prism Orpheus, Royer SF-24, Bricasti, SPL Neos

One Stereo Mic pointed in front of the Choir. NO EQ Added. FLAT

As promised, I had a chance to use the Orpheus's mic pre's now and they sounded wonderful. Mine generally sits on my master bus but also comes in handy for a remote FW AD/ micpre combo. Here is an example of a choir I just wrapped up over the weekend choral festival. I used one Royer SF-24 and the Orpheus via a laptop running Sequoia 12.

Back in the studio I a added Crane Song STC-8 and the Bricasti M7 and summed it all through the Neos. Here's what I got.

I'm thrilled over the sound of this so I thought to look around the web for other opinions and found this excellent review and speaker. Everything mentioned is spot on. His explanation on converters and MP3 near the end was so spot on as well.

Prism Sound Orpheus review video

That sounds great Chris. I think the Orpheus is brilliant. If they made a Thunderbolt or USB3 version I would buy it.

Thanks Clark, they have a Thunderbolt bridge for it.

audiokid, post: 401830 wrote: Thanks Clark, they have a Thunderbolt bridge for it.

I think it's just an adapter, isn't it? It doesn't work at TB speeds, from what I understand.

Not sure. But, its not even an issue for me. It sounds great and will for years. Its not like TB is going to change that so I see it more as a way to just keep the new doors open for Apple.

there is even FW 800 but who cares until you are doing huge amounts of data. These are simple machines compared. 8 channels. Pretty simple. Maybe I'm wrong.

OK I'm going to lay it on the line here Chris, I didn't have my glasses on so I couldn't read the post but I could make out the play button. And I am hearing a simply lovely sound of a beautiful recording of this lovely and rather young sounding choral group. The first thing I immediately noticed was as smooth lush warm quality. Of course though, I expected the worst with the sibilance. But there wasn't any? It sounded like how my ears and I hear things. So the first thing I thought was this ain't somebodies nice condenser microphone... it sounds like a ribbon!? Grab for the glasses and what do ya know?

Yup that is a gorgeous recording Chris. And that's the Orpheus? Nice... real nice. After all, they were one of the first to introduce a multitrack DSD system, years ago. I've always known their stuff to be superb. And with a price tag to match because you are getting one of the best IMHO. And I think it's the culmination of the finest that FireWire interfaces will get. Especially since that is now considered old technology and is being replaced by that USB 3.0 and/or Thunderbolt. So in all reality, LOL, you've purchased last year's model from the previous decade. So maybe the next stage will be defined and nice portable multitrack interface of this, that is all DSD and taking advantage of these octal core processors.

I don't know about you though? I really can't live with just a pair of microphone inputs. In fact I never feel complete unless I have at least four inputs at my disposal. I'm an ardent believer in always having some kind of third and/or fourth solo highlight microphones closer to the soloists. I mean they don't have to be on stands directly in front of them like a studio gig. Or when you watch the Three Tenor's singing to an audience of 50,000 were each one has a solo microphone in front of their horsepower strength voices. So on those indoor gigs I'd just like to have those highlights just above and a little closer from below and a little closer. Just to get that timing thing worked out so that whoever is doing this solo can be more front and centralized. And where that shorting of distance in time. That way the time differential allows that closer capsule to present for a more front and center feel that isn't just all beautiful stereo ambience. But then this option is not always applicable in all venues. And I'll still stick out a couple of extreme left and right outrigger ribbons as well if I can't set up solo highlight microphones. And where the stereo microphone would likely also be MS so they aren't facing left and right without at least having that middle center mono microphone facing straight on. There really is something wonderful about Left-Center-Right recordings.

Maybe it's because that vocal source has always been front and center in my life? That is to say Chris, you know where we both came from. I mean who else would've heard vocals front and center in their lives like we have? Although for those types of choral performances sometimes it's really only about that ambience blend. Of which yours was just beautiful. It couldn't have been sweeter sounding. I was on cloud 9. And the depth was purely stunning. Sounds like it's anything but state of the art. And yeah, just like the Royer advertisements the freakin' ribbons sound like the way at least I hear it. Does microphone preamps didn't sound state-of-the-art to me? They sounded lush and full and beautiful. Very impressive sounding indeed. You like your Lavery's better? You feel them to be at an order of magnitude better than the Prism's or is it just a small incremental difference in tonality? And with respect to the RME's, and what difference does it compare to those other two devices the Prism and the Lavery? Is it features, clocking, routing or the converters themselves and/or microphone preamps?

You know I'm not always going to own this 25,000 pound rig and that ain't money that's weight. Of course if the British pound is worth twice the US dollar, it's a 50,000 pound rig LOL. Or would that be a 75,000 pound rig? Since this was almost a $150,000 investment? These numbers I find very confusing? So I guess ya can be happy by losing weight when you lost quite a few pounds... of money?

I think we should all start recording with Crystal microphones? More of that classic sound for harmonicas and CB radios and which track your train was leaving on. Please have your tickets and microphones ready for the conductor.

I love the Cucamonga and Walla Walla concertos.
Mx. Remy Ann David

Thanks Remy,

The gig was to record a festival of choirs one after the other.

With this gig, I have no idea how many people there are from one choir to the next, or where they stand.
They walk in and I hit go.
And there are kids to adults so height is also hard to judge from one choir to the next. However, they do put the kids in the first half of the day so I can raise the boom for the adults during the break.
There is an Adjudicator and people sitting and walking in places that you simply can't use for mics. There is no time to say, "hold on... I need to move the mics" . I have to get it right the first time cold.
They will also move the piano from one choir to the next so its a one shot there also.

This recording is totally flat BTW.

The Royer SF-24 is glorious and choice for this. Its so easy and very pleasing indeed as you just pointed out. I walk in, lift the boom, aim, run 100ft of cable, plug in and roll. Its nerve racking too because you don't know what levels you need. The kids can be right up there in level or so quiet.

The first year I put matched DPA wings out and a one for the soloist ( that wasn't even close to the position we talked about) I was so off the mark, the next year I said, its the SF for this. Royer sent me the SF24 and I've never been happier. But I should mention, my job here is to be as natural as possible. They are judging this from the Adjudicators seat so close micing people would be unacceptable.

Lavry performed flawlessly the last two years. They are close. I summed through the Neos and I know that improved the sound so its imposable to say which converter I like more. It could be Lavry because it didn't break a sweat. But the Orpheus has 4 micpre's and a DA. Lavry and Prism are both stellar. Either one is a winner. I notice a few clicks on this recording. I'm not sure what it is yet. The Lavry never did this.

RME is what I use for my 24 channel summing. Its not portable.

I have been relying on my Lavry Blue for the past 7 years. I would like to have more channels of Lavry conversion although I'd like to try the Forssell A/D as well. I found the Prism Orpheus good but the Lavry sounds a tad better IMO.

Ya, I love Lavry. Their products sound stellar and work.

SPL just announced a few new interfaces so here are a few more to ponder over now.

Madison:
Model 1260
16+16 Channel MADI Interface

http://spl.info/en/… In Kürze: Sound Performance Lab
Crimson:
USB Interface & Monitor Controller
10/20 I/Os via USB, S/P-DIF, Analog XLR, RCA, 1/4" and Mini Jacks

Got an Apogee Symphony I/O back in February. Sounds fantastic, but it just broke, less than five months into the warranty.

Worst part: Apogee puts the shipping costs, both ways, on me.

...and that's on top of 3 weeks w no A/D converter. Time to dust off the old MOTU 896HD, reliable if sub-boutique.

Todzilla, post: 405519 wrote: Got an Apogee Symphony I/O back in February. Sounds fantastic, but it just broke, less than five months into the warranty.

Worst part: Apogee puts the shipping costs, both ways, on me.

...and that's on top of 3 weeks w no A/D converter. Time to dust off the old MOTU 896HD, reliable if sub-boutique.

Update: I did learn that Apogee pays return shipping. A support tech told me explicitly otherwise, so at the very least there's some confusion on their end.

its all part of beta-vesting. buy so they can try on you. your not the first broken symphony in their warranty place. i'd be angry, and return to sender. don't want some 'fixed' unit for 'new' cash. let them adjust assembly line. any competitive sales place will make your 'fixed unit' a tryout piece, and give you one that works.

it's not 'magic sound', its functionality. thats what you pay for w/ this type. solid is what you should get.

kmetal, post: 405771 wrote: its all part of beta-vesting. buy so they can try on you. your not the first broken symphony in their warranty place. i'd be angry, and return to sender. don't want some 'fixed' unit for 'new' cash. let them adjust assembly line. any competitive sales place will make your 'fixed unit' a tryout piece, and give you one that works.

it's not 'magic sound', its functionality. thats what you pay for w/ this type. solid is what you should get.

Got it back and all seems good. The sound is truly amazing (although it's made me realize my MOTU 896HD was really not that bad). The Maestro interface is really confusing and counter-intuitive however.

The best converters are the ones I have:

Lynx Aurora 8
Apogee AD8000
Dangerous D Box

I say they're the best because they are what I currently use to transform voltage transduced from air pressure into 1s and 0s. The bottom line is that conversion is incidental to the making of music. It's in your ears, brain and hands. It actually has nothing to do with the making and recording of music. This, I can promise you.

I was listening back to old recordings I made on my previous MOTU 24i/o PCI-424 Mackie system the other day and despite them not being "high end" kit, it still sounded like music and, if I do say so, pretty great. The differences between the high end kit (in terms of converters) I have now is so minute. Seriously. The kit should just be a CONDUIT to the music. Not the other way round. I can guarantee you that an experienced engineer can make a fine recording with mediocre kit because, as always, it's not the gear - it's you.

The biggest difference that can be made to your recordings is through your microphones and mic preamps. The converters should just be as clear a mirror to what those produce as possible.

Cheers :)