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Alécio Costa 7 April 2003

Hi friends! I am quite far from the USA, down here in the south of Brazil.

I know that Manley, Avalon, API, Focusrite would be much more appropriate gear to improve my console's mic preamps (02R).

However, I would like to have some opinions of yours regarding the following products. Any idea is very wellcomed.

1) Sumit Audio 2BA 221 $589
2) MP20 PreSonus $499
3) M-Audio Tampa $629
4) symetrix 302 dual $260
5) Focusrite Trakmaster $399
6) Focusrite Octapre $+/- 1000
7) Digimax 96KLT $+/- 1000
8) Grace 101 $599
9) dbx 386/376 $499

I wanted some nice stereo mic preamp with a reasonable compressor. No need for tube sound or equalization.

Something that might be reasonable leap from 02R mic preamps, not into having more gear that will not add any quality.
However, also, staying in the $1000 range.

p.s: Kurt mentioned the new 4 channel ISA also.

Thanks in advance
:p:

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Comments

KurtFoster Mon, 04/07/2003 - 18:34

I am also very keen on the Sebatron vmp-4000! It's a quad tube pre and instrument direct box with switchable lo boost / cut, bright and air settings. Very pristine natural sound that can be pushed or daisy chained to give it attitude if you wish. Lots of gain but very quiet. Lists at $1497! Really the best of all worlds. I will be publishing a full review shortly as soon as I get some pictures from Sebatron to run with it.

Of the pres mentioned above I would give a :tu: to the Summit and the Grace.

Also don't ignore the new Speck 5.0 I did a review of this also and I found it to be a very nice high headroom clean and airy pre. Great di for bass!
Kurt

KurtFoster Mon, 04/07/2003 - 19:05

Alecio,
I am sure Sebatron would be happy to ship one to you. I am not going to comment on the two Focusrites you mentioned other than to say these are not Rupert designs as are the "real" Focusrites. Last time I "dissed" these pieces a lot of people gave me snotty replies I guess because it hurt their feelings. :D

I promise however you wouldn't be unhappy with the vmp-4000! It's a great quad mic pre. Perfect as a front end for PT or any DAW. Hint; Don't spend your money twice! ... Kurt

KurtFoster Wed, 04/09/2003 - 15:19

Alecio,
My friend .... ummm , errr.. I am just amazed at your willingness to make big ticket purchases on equipment that has a limited life span such as Pro Tools and digital mixers, but you seem to want to "cheap out" every time you begin to talk about things that would last a lifetime like TRANSDUCERS! and mic pres. My advice is to put the big bucks into speakers, mic pres, analog compressors, analog eq's (front end) and cheap out on the stuff that is going to be inevitably obsolete in a few months or years.

There just aren't any inexpensive mic pres worth anything in my opinion. The FMR stuff comes closest to doing this but it is still limited. Traditionally the ART line of micpres has been a low headroom, low voltage/amperage, weak power supply line of gear. It does what it was designed for, reasonably well and I am sure that some good work can be done with it, but for "dummy proof" audio, I recommend front end gear that is of the high end "ilk". Kurt

KurtFoster Wed, 04/09/2003 - 16:09

ACB,
You specifically ask my opinion and then question my reply because you don't like the answer I gave.

thanks again for your words, but have you tested this gear or are you based in some magazine review or friend´s complaints?

pro channel > just analog, mic pre, selectable optical tube/variable mu compressor, tube eq.

digital mpa > tube mic pre with digital connectivity ........ digital mic Tube pre/comp. Up to 384khz.

How can a digital mic pre go to 384kHz? The sampleing rate would have to be 768kHz.!

I have used the ART Pro MPA before and I am basing the rest of my opinion from what others here and other places have said. I assure you, if someone comes out with something cheap that really works well, you will hear about it from a lot of other people than me! The FMR falls into this catagory although there are some comments that at times it runs out of headroom. Also of note in this catagory would be the Summit, The Grace and perhaps the Studio Projects VT-1. All thes pres have gotton excellent word of mouth. The fact is quality mic pres are all discreet, no ICs, very fast slew rates, at least partially point to point wired and massively power supplied. This cannot be done inexpensivly. Kurt

Alécio Costa Wed, 04/09/2003 - 16:20

yes, you are right.
correcting the info: maximum internal sample rate: 192K;
24 - 204khz - external sample rate

I am not saying I didn´t like your point of view. I asked you if you had read or some other people complained about it to you.
You just did not mention you had that gear .

It is not a matter of trust or not i what you say.

you take it personnally.
well, time to leave for a while :confused: .

3dchris Thu, 04/10/2003 - 06:25

Alecio,
I agree with Kurt. Don't waste your hard earned money on cheap preamps which probably would not sound much better than the ones you already have in 02R (btw buying a digital mixer is total waste of money imho. unless you do classical music recording). I really suggest that you take time and LISTEN and compare the units you want to buy with stuff like Avalon, UA etc. I didn't hear
Sebatron vmp-4000 yet but I heard only good words about it. If you already want to spend $1K on crappy gear why not wait and get the stuff that will last you for long time and make a REAL difference in the sound quality of your recordings? After all Sebatron costs only about 500 more. I'm sorry Alecio, but you can't make a great recording on a crappy gear even if you're the best engineer in the world.

tnx,

chris

Davedog Thu, 04/10/2003 - 08:37

Alecio...buy what your ears tell you is right...fortunately for you, the mic pres in your o2r are pretty good...as are most of yamaha mic pres from a hundred years back...on your list, the Grace and the Summit are worthy....the new symetrix is okay...have checked out the John Hardy stuff yet? As for Art Pro MPA's...unfortunately most of the ART stuff is kinda crappy and lowend..and this tends to put a lot of people off on all their products....for an example of how an ART PRO MPA actually sounds, go to the critique area here at RO and page back till you find some of my offerings...listen to em and decide for yourself...the vocals were all done with an MPA direct to harddisk and an Octava MK-319 mic...no eq and very little reverb....peace

KurtFoster Thu, 04/10/2003 - 09:33

I was going to hold off for a while but because of this thread I went ahead and posted the review on the Sebatron vmp -4000! To be brutaly honest, I just can't find enough good things to say about this mic pre. It has changed my life, I now have all the money I could ever spend, I don't need to change the oil in my car anymore and my wife is completly content and gives me all the sex I can handle ... :D Well not exactly but I hope you get the point. These really are the best sounding mic pres I have ever come across. Anyone who doesn't check these micpres out is missing out on something special. .... Kurt :tu: :tu:

anonymous Wed, 04/16/2003 - 03:12

Hey guys,
My band recorded beds tonight down at the studio and I AM ABSOLUTLEY STOKED. We got all the drums, electric guitars, and bass done for our three song demo. Humbly, I must tell you that there was only one punch and one edit on my three drum tracks (I am not entirely happy with one of the tracks, felt a little jittery, but it's in the can).
OK, but the reason I am telling you guys this is because it was the first night with the new RNP. We were using the RNP, a Universal Audio 2-610, and a Studio Projects VTB-1. All performed admirably.
The RNC is very transparent, as reputed, little coloration. The SP is versatile because it has the variable tube option. The SP doesn't shine inthe high end the way the RNP does, but sometimes that's not a bad thing. The Universal Audio 2-610 is just amazing. I just can't speak highly enough of it.
You guys are great! I wish I could buy a round of beers! Cheers, Doc

KurtFoster Sat, 04/19/2003 - 13:00

golli,
The vmp - 4000 lists for $1497 but can be had for less. That's for 4 channels.. a very good bargain. There's also a vmp -2000, a 2 channel pre that lists for $850. contact Sebatron at http://www.sebatron.com
I myself, am not a huge fan of the Focusrite Platinum line. I'm not saying it's terrible but it's not really what everyone has come to expect from the name. The "red" range is a Rupert Neve design, very nice but expensive.

I also have not been super impressed with the Presonus pres. They are functional and better than, say a Mackie pre, but you only get one chance to preamplify a mic signal. I say do it right, it saves a lot of grief later. Once you start working with high end mic pres, you will never want to go back. Kurt

KurtFoster Mon, 04/28/2003 - 12:33

Originally posted by golli:

Mackie preamp Vs Allen & Heath preamp, Kurt and thanks in advance :)

My feeling is that all these less expensive pres do an ok job.. they are all energy starved designs and although some claim to be class A pres, in reality usually only a portion of them is truly class A with the balance of the circut being a compromise. Allen Heath vs. Mackie? It's apples and oranges.. at that point it's a matter of subjective personal taste. I don’t think one is particularly better than the other, just different.

Originally posted by Alecio’ Costa - Brazil:

I am waiting for Sebatron ship/payment methods. I shall be going VM2000. Any other suggestions?

Yes as a matter of fact I do.. I have been conducting a trials for a review of the Millennia STT-1 ---ORIGIN pre. Drool, slurp, what’s that sound that Homer Simpson makes?? argggggghhh! … This is a super mic pre! Keep an eye out for the details but I will say this pre is a wonderful channel strip for acoustic sources as well as bass. It is a user selectable solid state or tube mic pre with a transformer that may be placed into the audio path at users discretion, a four band parametric eq and an EL OP type limiter all in one package. I am anxious to try it on kick drum and snare. I only wish I had 8 or 9 of them here so I could try an entire drum kit on them. :D Kurt

KurtFoster Mon, 04/28/2003 - 13:00

ACB,
I just recorded a song yesterday using the ORIGIN. Four acoustic guitars, bass, a solo on the high registers of the bass and a vocal track, all using a U87i except the bass parts (direct). I just can't stop listining to it! I have it on loop and I'm just sitting here saying to myself, "I can't believe I recorded this!". Kurt

FloodStage Mon, 04/28/2003 - 13:48

Kurt,

I don't come here that often and I hope I'm not overstepping .........

Until I read your comments on the Focusrite (focuswrong?) stuff, I thought all you did is say nice things about gear.

Believe it or not, I would like to see more reviews on stuff you don't like. If you like everything you review, what does a good review tell me? Nothing. If you review stuff that sucks and say it sucks, then those of us who own or have owned that stuff, will be able to relate with your threshold of good vs. bad.

Why not review the Alesis 3630 or the ART Tube MP, or ... (the more units sold the better!). Explain their shortcomings. If I know where your threshold is, it will help me to use the information in your reviews better.

Thanks and if you choose to ignore this suggestion, remember, sometimes you get what you pay for and this suggestion was free!

KurtFoster Mon, 04/28/2003 - 15:07

Originally posted by FloodStage:
Kurt,

I don't come here that often and I hope I'm not overstepping ......... Believe it or not, I would like to see more reviews on stuff you don't like ..... If you review stuff that sucks and say it sucks, then those of us who own or have owned that stuff, will be able to relate with your threshold of good vs. bad ...... Why not review the Alesis 3630 or the ART Tube MP, or ... (the more units sold the better!). Explain their shortcomings. If I know where your threshold is, it will help me to use the information in your reviews better.

FloodStage,
Ohhhh, you're trying to get me into trouble with my big mouth! :D This is all I need, and invitation to spout off! Hee Hee Hee ... actually I am quite well known for being very opinionated and a bit snobbish about gear.

In regards to the Alesis 3630 comps, I personally don’t see why they get such a bad rap. I have had reasonably good results using them previously. Actually I own 2 of them. They are not my first choice “go to” comps but I do find them useful at times. Now they are not as good as say a Manley EL OP or a vintage 1176 but look what they cost.

I will even go so far as to say the Focusrite pres that we have been discussing are really not horrible. It’s all about what your expectations are. Most of the budget gear available will give the user about 80% of what a professional recording sounds like. This is fine for a user that wants to record demo quality stuff, or for what has become known as a “project studio”. The problem arises when the recordist is bitten by the bug and decides that they want “That Huge Drum Sound” as is being discussed presently in another thread, or other results that are more in line with what only professional recording equipment can provide.

20 years ago there was a whole segment of the market that was labeled “semi-pro” that actually described this very well. But recently many manufactures have decided to market their wares under the “Pro” moniker and herein lies the rub, where the waters have become muddied.

Remember that 80% I spoke of earlier? Well that last 20% is what costs! Up to 10 times as much in some cases. See 80% of a quality design can be implemented using very large scale integration designs, integrated circuits and PCB production techniques but that last 20% comes from massive power supplies, hand built point to point wiring and only the highest quality components.

So, to work this around, I will say this in answer to your question. I avoid reviewing stuff that sucks. The sad truth of the matter is, if I were to say that “such and such” bites doggie wiener, I would never get another piece of gear from a manufacturer to review. That’s the way it works. Have you ever seen a bad review anywhere??? Noooooo! This is why. So I just ask for stuff that I already know will be up to snuff, so I don’t have to write a bunch of bullsh*t for the readers to insure my future in this area of the music business. But you can rest assured that if I say apiece of gear is good and has a useful purpose in your studio, it’s true. That is one line I won’t cross. Kurt

FloodStage Mon, 04/28/2003 - 18:39

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
The sad truth of the matter is, if I were to say that “such and such” bites doggie wiener, I would never get another piece of gear from a manufacturer to review. That’s the way it works. Have you ever seen a bad review anywhere??? Noooooo!

Yeah, and that's too bad.

I totally understand.

But it's too bad.


But you can rest assured that if I say a piece of gear is good and has a useful purpose in your studio, it’s true. That is one line I won’t cross. Kurt

That's good to know!

golli Wed, 04/30/2003 - 15:08

My feeling is that all these less expensive pres do an ok job.. they are all energy starved designs and although some claim to be class A pres, in reality usually only a portion of them is truly class A with the balance of the circut being a compromise.

Energy starved you say. Is that the reason why those bigger consoles have outboard PSU, to get more energy into the micpres. If so an Allen&Heath 14:4:2 can distribute more power into it's pres than Allen&Heath 16:2(10 pres Vs 16 pres), right???. The point I'm trying to get is, I own a Allen&Heath 14:4:2 and Digi 001 and have been asking around here about good budget mics, but by using a quality mic with those mic pres mentioned above, I'm not getting every thing out of the mic. I'm obviously not going to buy some mic pre that is only capable of give me some sonic difference, that only a experienced ear can hear in a good monitoring environment. I like those A&H pres anyway but I'm mostly use to them in a live setting. Come to think of it I have'nt even A/B'ed them to the 001 pres. I'm even willing to get me that NTK mic cause of good reviews, from guys who got them with the intention of speaking highly of them, to keep their job :D .
Apples and oranges, even if one isnt better than the other would you say that Allen&Heath is "warmer" than VLZ(mackie).
And lastly, Kurt feel free to slap on my hands for overly picking your brain ;) .

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