RemyRAD, post: 399475 wrote: I like recording real drums because I can make them sound like sample drums LOL. That's what gates are all about and the EQ and the limiters. Recording real drums is really gratifying, challenging and I don't care how bad the surrounding acoustics are when it's rock 'n roll. So why should people be playing with software samples? Where is the art of recording going? You're not recording anything therefore it is no longer an art. It's a video game. And while video games can be fun, it does not involve real musicians and real instrumentation. I want excellence out of people not out of software. The software is nothing more than a finishing tool. Recording a snare drum difficult? No way. It's child's play. Top microphone, bottom microphones phase inverted, limiters and the gate. EQ to taste. Is it the snare drum you want to record? No? Then use a trigger to trigger your sample from your recorded snare drum. But if all you want to play with is software, go for it. I enjoy the art of actual recording of instruments and people. And along with people losing the ability to play with others because everything emanates from their bedroom in a solo fashion, where is the art going? Sure, Michelangelo probably didn't have statue carving interns fresh out of statue carving school? And that was a solo project. So some arts are so low in nature where others are ensemble oriented. Which is what we record. Ensembles beaded string quartets, full-blown symphonic and operatic productions or a simple four piece rock 'n roll band. Don't lose the art of what we do through playing video games. I mean that is the bleeding edge of the state of the art of the technical stuff. And it's good to get it under your belt for corrective uses. Relying upon only samples puts you in the category of the kids behind the counter at McDonald's. Which we all know is the pinnacle of culinary satisfaction right?

I only do McDonald's when I'm feeling cheap
Mx. Remy Ann David

Sorry Remy but as much as I love you, this is the most absurd and completely naive statement you have made to date. Anyone with and experience in the sample world would be laughing, or embarrassed for you and even wonder what kind of site this is here. There is an entire culture 4 decades long and high end technology moving at gods speed all based around sampling and sound replacement. You are so far off the mark its painful reading this. I'm not saying it right, I'm saying its way past where you got off the bus.
facepalm

one of the first things to help you get a full 'live' drum sound is to make sure your mics are in phase, should you go this route. otherwise, you'll have a thin tinny blurry image.

Well Chris, you might think I'm off the mark but I'm not. I'm not always right but I'm never wrong. There are still those people that work for companies like NPR radio, the Public Broadcasting System a.k.a. PBS and many many others, that love the art of recording people. Yeah and I've been recordings since I was a kid and one of the first in the DC area to go digital-based recording systems, starting in 1983. But that still involved live capture of the events requiring quite a bit more than just a pair of microphones hung up in an XY fashion. Highlight microphones. Crowd microphones. Etc. etc. which actually required no real software manipulation of any kind. And that's going back three decades. So don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about... because I do.

Sample production can be fun and it can be valuable for many different kinds of productions. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used or utilized to its fullest extent. But the art of proper microphones selection, placement is still paramount in making fine recordings of any kind regardless of the microphone technology and equipment used. And that's what good broadcast recording engineers do. Perhaps you've ever worked this side of the business? I have, starting at age 15, 42 years ago. We didn't replace parts. We didn't autotune anything. We didn't quantize the tempo. It wasn't necessary with real professional musicians. Don't know who you've been working with? But if you like playing computer games with your audio, that's cool. But then there are those of us that use our digital audio recorders as nothing more than just that even if it's in a computer. The rest is left up to the musicians and our engineering expertise, technique and talents.

I mean there are still those people playing old-fashioned musical instruments that you don't plug-in nor use plug-ins upon. And that requires real engineering expertise of audio. So I'm not here to appeal to the mindless 10-18-year-olds. I don't care if all lower musician doodler's all need to use software to appear professional. I know how to use my software to correct for phase timing errors, compression, EQ, limiting, gating, reverb, echo, slap, time delay, anything you would find in any decent top shelf control room. So I use my hardware or the software however I feel necessary and whenever I feel it necessary. It's not a crutch. It's not what turns crap into something less crappy. It only turns it into consumables for children that like all that gobbledygook effect sounding crap. So what are you talking about precisely?

I don't need to be butting heads with you Chris. You are a competent professional. I am a competent professional. There are other competent professionals here and we all work differently and we all believe in different things. I am not of your religion. That's all. I have 42 years of professional experience in this field, art and technology. The only times I am behind with is the desire to turn no talents into something marketable. And so I don't prostitute myself in that manner like you might be doing to help feed your family? And I can understand that. You have a family and I don't. So I don't have to lower myself to the lowest common denominator of computer gaming jockeys. And I don't appreciate your putdowns of my experience, background, talents. Because professionals don't do that to other professionals in a public forum such as this. But you are a professional coming from a different direction and you can't possibly understand that which you have never experienced on a professional level yourself. I'm not angry here but rather disappointed to be attacked again? There is no call for this. Not every kid wants to be a video gamer. There are still those that want to know what I know and some of them just happened to come to Recording.org to get all angles. Or do your the debates between actual professional engineers and not putdowns such as what you have done to me. That's why this site is better than others. Each side has its own particular way of presenting themselves. But as a kid wanted to play trumpet and went to his parents and asked for music lessons, they probably get a teacher in their middle late 60s that retired from the Symphony Orchestra. And what you're saying is, if you can't play trumpet like that which you here or on a rap or hip-hop recording, his teaching is not worthy. Well, you are passing judgment on people my friend which isn't a very Christian thing to do. And while I might profess to be an atheist, I do love those who understand and can properly interpret the good book a.k.a. the Bible. I'm one of those other recording religions and you are discriminating against my religion of recording. And I think this makes sense to everybody.

So how do you think they make sampled drum recordings and why don't you think that my live drum recordings don't sound like sampled drum recordings? I mean honestly Chris. What's eating at you? We all post what we do, what we believe in, how we work and the young mitigating fact that we are all professionals. Let the folks reading these posts decipher for themselves what this may all mean. Putdowns really don't allow anybody to understand another side.

What's with Chris?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Originally Posted by RemyRAD

I like recording real drums because I can make them sound like sample drums LOL. That's what gates are all about and the EQ and the limiters.

This is what I am talking about.
One example: You cannot make a Rogers Kit sound like a Roland 808 kit. You are talking complete nonsense.

Originally Posted by RemyRAD

I like recording real drums because I can make them sound like sample drums LOL. That's what gates are all about and the EQ and the limiters.

Well Chris, you might think I'm off the mark but I'm not. I'm not always right but I'm never wrong.

Choose the appropriate topics to say this stuff, please.

I'm trying to reach you rather than alienate you. I know you are never wrong from your POV. But from a professional POV, in today's world full of vast colour and detail, and new engineers growing up with so much more available today, you would never be hired the moment you talked like this. In fact, I visualize security showing you to the door because you just won't stop talking nonsense in a boardroom full of specialized designers.

Its like you are telling a new generation to keep using this glossy shade of pink because the restaurant you went to 30 years ago was packed all the time and that was the colour they painted it.

Here's where this goes sideways: I fear this is going to go right over your head and go into a full page discussion back in the day.

Remy, Can a Bricasti M7 replace a real room effect or improve one that sounds like a closet or be possibly more suitable over a cheap sounding studio with terrible room reflections? Could it be that people trying to record here might want to discuss ways to do thing better using technology?

In one of so many examples: I try an educate you about the beauty of the Bricasti M7, the worlds most advanced spacial simulator, you say this is non sense, even refer it to a toy some time back. Then some plug-in will be just as good. BUT then.... Nothing replaces real. You are all over the map.

You call highly specialized products like this a toy with a lot of arrogance attached to your tone. But you have never used one and you have never worked on electronic music at any scale today. If you had, you would not talk so dated and be so insulting towards an entire industry moving in this direction at God speed. You are pushing people away and embarrassing yourself. Maybe the old timers are with you but I can assure there is a percentage wondering who this person is here. "Are you for real"

Can the Nord Drum patches really sound like Remy's gated tricks? And how long do you think it would take you to get it just right while guys are tapping their foots waiting for your to make it sound like the kick in their MPC? While you think you you have it right with your gate and ringy room sound, someone else is done and moving to the next project with a happy client. No wonder studios are going broke.

FWIW, World class engineers have spent days on one sample too. You have no idea of the detail and intricacy involved in this very specialized area of music. Really. And when combining tradition and electronics, it gets even more detailed, fun or interesting. The "recording" world is broader than your scope of what you consider to be professional. There are people that use all sorts of methods to create and blend sounds together all in the name of "recording".

Are you serious? You think you can fool or convince traditionalist that specialize in HD music that some Gretch maple kit, a few sm57's and some gates in a live room is going to work on his/her next video game or soundtrack when the target sound needs a certain shape.

And, if a sampled snare fits better now, rather than redoing the entire snare track over. Do the math. The session is over and everyone is done.
There are hundreds of libraries that have been designed over the last 30 years for specific music, effects or purpose to make things more feasible or suitable for the task at hand. There is a time and place to be traditional or smart.

You have this derailing ability with an elitist attitude that you are better than people specializing in modern HD music. When someone talks about a particular trick that can save endless hours redoing something done bad, you barge in and turn us back to 1970 all the time. Progressive and engaging new engineering methods is not your fort-ay :(. Its driving me crazy.

You don't have to like the direction of music today but you really need to stop talking like this is 1970. Its insulting some and disturbing others. People that know better are complaining.

Chris... a Roland 808 was not a sampled drum. It was a synthesizer emulation of a bass drum. I'm talking about sample libraries of sampled drum kits. So I'm not talking nonsense when it comes to sampled drums. And not even necessarily nonsense if you simply trigger a KEPEX 1, with a 60 Hz oscillator from the bass drum. So, no, I'm not trying to emulate a Roland 808. But I can make sounds of drums sets better than most with the techniques that I use. Because I don't have a slather of just open microphones on a drum set. Sometimes I do it that way. Other times I don't. I won't trigger drums on straightahead jazz for instance. I will for rock 'n roll. I might for contemporary jazz and have. But Gates along with EQ and Compression/Limiting is an important aspect of recording drums sets for contemporary music purposes. That's all I'm saying. And if one wants to trigger a sample of an 808, cool. Which still can be accomplished from the recording of an actual bass drum or not. And that's what Roger Nichols was doing with his Wendall back in the 1980s and you didn't have any problem with that did you? The same thing can be applied here. And that's not completely unusual today by a long shot. Why shouldn't folks be crafting their own actual drum samples? That's why this is a creative process and not necessarily a purely retail process. There are those of us that craft our sound as opposed to relying simply on other peoples recorded samples. And I don't see any problem with that technique? Why should you? This is all in the pursuit of better, more competent and knowledgeable engineering and the techniques behind it. Children and other adults and musicians may want to take advantage of retail samples but it's not necessary, not always. So don't get your panties all in a bunch over my recording techniques and that which I share with others. I expect a more professional attitude from you as you know how this is also 100% subjective. Old techniques can be combined with new techniques and technologies to create whatever kind of musical menagerie folks want to produce.

As you have been made aware of, there are folks who tried to emulate 1960s and 1970s style sounding recordings. Then you're not going to get instant 60's or 70's styles, unless you understand the equipment that was used and the technique behind it. This too can translate to the digital software world just as relevantly as it did in the analog world. And you know that's what I bring to the table here as I am a 1970s engineer/producer. And that's where basic recording techniques need to be known about. And that's not all about plug-ins. But it's helpful to know for others, how it was done back in the day. And let them gleaned from that what they will. So please Chris, stop putting me down. I'm not here to threaten your knowledge or expertise whatsoever. I look at you as something of a George Massenburg which you should take as a high compliment. And even though I've known George, personally, since I was 15, I don't want my engineering to sound like George's engineering because it's my engineering. I love his stuff. I even love the stuff of his he told me everybody else hated! And that was his last Linda Ronstadt recording LOL. And I thought it was superb. He's said, I was the only one LOL. He actually got defensive when I said I wanted to do talk to him about that Linda Ronstadt recording I thought was so what gorgeous sounding. And I'm seeing and hearing the same defensive posturing right now from you. And really, I'll be damned if I know why? I might be a flake engineer but I'm a good flake engineer LOL. And so I've flaked a lot of people out I guess LOL? And good enough to get major award nominations from first-time applications. That's no small feat although I did make a video a couple of years ago of what was left of Little Feat at the State Theater in Falls Church, Virginia. (Not for broadcast, nor commercial release). And where I also had a nice conversation with Bill about work he did with George through the years. Another damn fine band that didn't need use of autotune, rhythmic quantizing, etc.. And I find that quite refreshing.

So I'm not saying that you shouldn't be favoring that type of production. I just offer up other ways to go about it.

So you are reaching me. Apparently though I am not reaching you? And that's OK. We all have our own demographic clientele we want to work with. With kids of your own, I would absolutely believe you would love to impress your children with music and production techniques they like to relate to. And so you go after a completely different clientele than I do. And I produce different kinds of products than you do. All of which are 100% professionally produced by 100% professionals. And I'm only sharing how I personally go about my productions. I am not saying that anybody else needs to do with that way. But I want to let them know what is available to them. So we are still really on the same side here.

I don't see how time-honored knowledge and technique could be insulting or disturbing to anyone other than someone that wants to be insulted or disturbed by it? Which is what you seem to be experiencing and I'm sorry for that. But that's not my problem that's your problem. And there is nothing disturbing or insulting to know how real engineers over the years have done their thing and still work that way. My goodness Chris... all this great equipment that you have owned and reviewed is all cool stuff. It's not the only stuff. And if you went to read what some of the most successful moneymaking stars record with, it ain't your stuff. It's that old stuff I have. And then they can play with it all they want in their computers any which way they like. But every article that you read, in most every trade publication, ends up indicating that they were cutting things on API, Neve, SSL, sometimes Millennia, sometimes UA, sometimes something else but mostly those first three. And we all know there is good reason for it. Most everything else of a boutique nature is largely designed to emulate those first three. Of course there will always be the tube enthusiast and why not.

So while a lot of folks are working in similar hybrid manners to your self, not all are. Some still like those analog consoles even if they're not API, Neve, SSL and I can't blame them. Analog summing buses and routing switchers are not the be-all end-all of every studio today. Not by a long shot. Chuck Ainley told me in Nashville, he does most everything on an SSL 9000 J. And those folks are at the top of the charts. So is he doing it all wrong also? Maybe you should tell him how to do it better? You should tell him that console he is using is crap. And that he should be using a Dangerous summing box in order to get good quality recordings with or something like that? I don't think that would be received terribly well with him either as it isn't with me. Because that's not the way we work. That's the way you work. And I'm not putting you down but you are putting me down and that's just plainly not professional on your part. And if you asked Chuck how he makes his recordings, he will reply " I just record and mix music." Which to me implies that he is getting exactly what he wants from the musicians. Which allows him to produce exactly that which he wants to produce. So he ain't going the digital route either all that much.

I think we understand each other a little better now?
Mx. Remy Ann David

facepalm

Okay, I give. I'm just saying its a bit hard to follow.

This isn't about me.

It about

I like recording real drums because I can make them sound like sample drums LOL. That's what gates are all about and the EQ and the limiters.

and more of the same.

Wow this thread has really shaken things up here between two of the main forces of this site!! I say it reminds of when I fought with my brother about how he wants to make the drums into perfection and I want to hear the drummer for what he is worth. Actually, I said just that many posts ago on this thread and still I went back to hear only the EZ drummer version of this track. So, the argument here for me is that I have nothing on the other side to compare one over the other. I have the OP just saying that he does not like or cannot rely on his setup to record raw drums in his studio. I have not heard the raw drums so I have nothing else as a comparison. I still think the drums sound over compressed and the snare is not pronounced enough in the mix. Really do not want to say this in a way that will make anyone here not like me and do not want to hurt OP's feelings. He is doing a good job with what he has so far. I just know it can be better. I really feel that the samples are getting in the way of the production. I mean if you asked if I think the singer is better than Bob Dylan that would be a subjective question. Well they both sound a bit like gravel right in your ears. LOL. Well the metal version is meant to sound like gravel while Bob Dylan is naturally that way. Which one is better? Well I identify with Bob's music more than what I hear from the OP. Does that mean that the old way is better or the new way is worse? No! I prefer to hear natural gravel from the voice rather than an effect that takes the voice through a processor. I can hear Bob sing and it is real. I am trying to relate this to the drum track of this song... I have not heard what the drummer really sounds like or how he plays. I hear a triggered tempo that has probably been manipulated into a quantified sampling of what the drummer was playing. Is it better than what the drummer sounds like live? Is it better because technology allows us to do this today? Just because we can? Or should? I would not say this is like playing video games and I can see that comment hurting the feelings of other engineers that go a different route. Also, being stuck in the 70's as far as drum sounds is not a bad thing either. Every single John Bonham track is proof that drums can sound full and punchy.

Really that is my driving complaint about the drums on this track. It is the definition of character that I am not hearing in the drum samples. I just don't hear a real drummer ever having played this beat. It is not pushing the track in the right direction for me. Sorry to interrupt this great argument though, but I feel it would be best to start demanding more from the OP. I mean lets start helping him more. Arguing about 1970's and 2000's interpretations is not really making sense here... I know the OP is not gonna go against his instinct. That is his instinct to use samples over the use of raw drums files. He is right for doing what makes *Him* happy!! That is what I have learned about music production over the last 20 years. It is best for a person to do what they want and learn from it. By saying this I do not expect the OP to send a version of the raw drums or a mix with raw drums. Although I would really value his open readiness to share the whole production with us. You already have shared this much right? Why not share it all? That even includes sending midi files over to anyone here that has better samples to show him. I swear this could be an eye opener for the OP as to what those drums could sound like, whether they are sampled or natural. I am not saying I am the *Person* here to help show the OP how to mix sampled triggered drum tracks. But I know who is between the two here having an argument on this thread... I still just want to hear the raw tracks as I have posted before on this thread. What's so funny about peace, love and understanding? That statement will get you stomped face down on the curbside during a fight! Hopefully we can see eye to eye to help each other better.

LOL you've got it doc. Beautiful summation of all that has been said.

Chris please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to diss anything you have said. We're talking about two different sides of actual basic recording knowledge and music production. If you're going for those computer game soundtracks, yeah man, everything you said is right. And saying anything about history of, the talents it required, how people manufactured their own sounds any which way they could, was the creative process, yes, back in the day and as it should be today. This is a creative collective endeavor. And you get their with whatever you feel comfortable using, be it new or old technologies. That's the fun part. I mean what the hell did the world do before we got digital? It's like teaching history and leaving a lot of history out that was still pertinent to how we got where we are today. And much of the same techniques are still used in the capture process if one is actually capturing anything? I was only saying to capture the sound of a drum or two or three, four, what ever. Processing each individually, making a sample of each one hand using your processing power of the computer to lay it in, within whatever technique you want to use. Which helps teach the art of good capture processes. That's all I was saying, really. Samples need to be built up some way or the other through a retail library or through one's own creative thought process and efforts. Maybe it'll work? Maybe it won't?

I never said your reverb gizmo was a toy. In fact, it's not only one of the best units, it's also not cheap for the average consumer. You've got a lot of folks here that want everything for $100 or less. Folks that don't have the money you have. But they do have software. They do need to know and learn what that software is capable of doing when they don't have a budget like you have. Which means DIY or nothing for some. And a lot of us came from the Nothing budgets. So please don't distort what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter if it's 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s recording techniques. Each one provided a certain kind of sound and it's good to know how folks got that sound. What was used? How it was done? And with that added knowledge, better understanding is attained. Better production techniques are developed. Understanding of why a 57 or 58 might be better than somebody's cheap Chinese cardioid condenser microphone thingy?

For folks who don't understand what's going on between myself and Chris, it's passion, pure passion for what we do and how we do what we do. I think the reverb that Chris has is a fantastic device. Right up there with the best of the best and costing that of the best. That's not in the budget of 80% of your visitors to this site may be even less than 80%? So with the kid that has 2 inputs on a $100 box with some limited edition software isn't going to be able to afford your Bruschetta M 7 or a 6 or a 5 much less a 1 LOL. They're also not going to be able to afford any EMT plates, UAD plug-in cards, any of that stuff, much less a good quality sample library that wasn't already included in their limited edition multitrack software. There is nothing embarrassing about teaching the BASICS. You've got to learn how to walk before you learn how to run. You are way beyond some of these folks visiting your site. I mean there are actually folks taking a violin bow and playing a saw. Do you find something wrong with that? Is that inferior to purchasing a sampled saw? It won't be right for the video game sound effects? Are you sure about that? And then if you don't have the best acoustics, you have to have a M-7 otherwise your stuff will not be professional sounding like yours? Come on Chris? Every engineer has their own style and methods to get what they want, assuming of course they are professional engineers. And so beginners can understand what us folks had to do when there wasn't a Guitar Box store to go to or the Internet. Let them develop in their own minds from all of the information they can cull together what is best for them. You are dictating what you consider to be best for them. I'm giving them options. You're not giving them any options. Your only option is your way. And that's fine as a professional engineer that you are.

I don't care how technically accurate, superior, state-of-the-art, my equipment is. It's what I've got. It's what I use. It's all professional. It's all valid. It's not outdated. It all works. It can still deliver as I do. I ago after a different market than your market. That does not make you more right than me or me more right than you. It's just both sides of the story for others to learn about. The way in which I was taught which I thought was mighty fine, by old masters, by the best, with the hit engineers and with the local yokel engineers. I don't need to keep defending my knowledge or expertise. I have a track record in this business. And it has spanned more than 40 years. Are you saying your teachers and school were too stupid or too ill-prepared to teach you anything? Because they were teaching all of that old stuff? Don't be ridiculous Chris, please. I respect you and I expect the same in return. Especially after what I have contributed for you, your family and your pocketbook. And in turn, I have graciously given of myself now for over seven years during my brain surgery convalescence and beyond. So maybe my brains are still scrambled but my techniques are still solid. And it doesn't relate to what you are currently producing, not my bag, not my thing and it doesn't have to be that way. Not everything is a computer game soundtrack. Not everything is a prepubescent performer or listener. Everybody is not under the age of 25. So let's get back on track here LOL? What the hell were we talking about?

Engineers like to passionately discuss, through technobabble articulations what we all like and dislike. What we do what we won't do. What we like to do and what we don't like doing. As a pay for engineer, you frequently have to do things for the client that they request that you don't necessarily agree with yourself. But that's the name of the game when you're in business. Remember, the customer is always right even when they are completely wrong. You can try to discuss and verbalize your concerns but in the end, it's what the client wants. That was something that was not taught at Full Sale University. Because there was this chief music engineer, at the largest studio in DC, with his $40,000 bachelor's degree, telling me, the paid for associate producer for overdubs of a jazz album, that the studio (4 control rooms, over $1 million) had no ribbon microphones because ribbon microphones were noisy and no good. And I didn't bring my own with me figuring, the best studio in town would have at least one? Big mistake on my part. Big mistake on their part. And Bozo chief music engineer was gone by the end of that year. And the job in which I got paid to do was superseded by his condenser microphone selection. And everybody hated the outcome that performed those parts I produced. But he had to have it his way because he knew better than the producer, me. Dumb MF. How highly insulting is that for a client? And that comes from one of the major recording schools in the country. So don't give me any crap! You know what you know and I know what I know and I know you are a professional and you better respect me as same.

The world class
Mx. Remy Ann David

This isn't about me, thats where we're off track here. This is basic stuff.

I'm not just referring to computer games or sound tracks either. Big live 70's, Jazz, Techno/ Trance drums or percussion, even bass makes no difference. You are missing my point. And the reason why is because, I'm assuming from early examples of sample based experiences you don't know what's possible on a pro level now. And recording engineers don't care too look to deep into it anyway because it is a direct conflict. But we should embrace these things when needed. Its takes some understanding and if you are up to it, the payoff is pretty impressive.

This information is for anyone providing your DAW has some basic tools and you understand how to replace problems in the mix.

My point. If someone has a crap room, which most people do today, which results in a bad snare, reflective horrible sounding overheads, flabby kicks, boomy bass guitars which are killing the entire track....... this can be fixed better than a decade ago if you know what you are doing. You don't have to live with it, if you don't want to.

Remy, My deepest apologies for being so rude towards you. I'm not intending to be mean and I know its coming across as this. See if the post below makes more sense.

Scenario: Performance is amazing but the snare, kick , bass guitar or overheads suck. :confused: Something or all of it sounds Micky Mouse. Who today is recording at Abbey Road. Not me. So lets have fun being smart. Their is no reason you have to sound like a kindergarten playing on a computer either, If your samples and technique sounds like a kid, that's your problem. The greatest mixers do this and no one knows they used samples.

If you want press, we know a song needs to be good. " Good" is of course in the eyes of the beholder, but we're hoping its to do with talent and the sound of the song. You want be cherished on Facebook and time is running out.

We assume this is understood now and we stay focused on doing what is needed to get there without redoing your entire session again because you messed up, bad micing, room, talent, budget whatever.

Everyone in the band went back to Siberia for a 3 month detox. The budget is spent, the label is waiting, your friends on Facebook are freaking out, where are you! Time is running out, you need to get your mix in order.
howdy

I say you you can fix it and quiet possibly improve it to a higher level that you ever imagined without effecting the performance.

To my knowledge the majority of problems in a mix are caused from bad drum tracks, bass and spacial area of music that crams us into a box. There are methods and tricks we can do in the mixing arena to improve sounding like a newbie. This is what I'm talking about. I don't care if its Blues, Rock, Country, Metal, Jazz, an old time waltz, samples become your best friend.

cheers!

I really have no problems with that Chris. Samples are a great tool, no doubt about it. Yes I do understand current software oriented techniques to replacing most everything. And which on occasion, I have done some of that. Not by much. Mostly through creative editing and by hand. On every beat. With every phrase. Flown in. Nudged around in the timeline. Time compressed. Time expanded. Pitch corrected. Triggered. Of course it's important to do things as quickly as possible to keep the project within budget. But if you want to cut your client a break and feel that you could do something different on your own and they're willing to let you try? No problemo'. Particularly, if by chance, you didn't have a sample library of an adequate type? Which rarely happens with drum samples LOL. So then you would have to massage that drum set in the most thorough way. Gates. Compressors. Limiters. Lots of EQ going and coming. Tighten it up. Change some of the timing. Change the physical space through time delays. Compress and gate the overheads. Re-amp a snare drum or bass drum in you're acoustically compromised room. Work the lousy acoustics. Which is what you would have to do if you didn't know how to or could do it Chris's way. And that's the other side of the recording coin. So I stand fast on my own techniques. So I never have those problems right from the get go no matter how bad the acoustical environment or how lousy the drum kit might be. I have to record in all sorts of terrible acoustic environments with otherwise lousy cheap instruments that poor musicians can only afford. And that's what location recording for album production and broadcast requires. Some of that must be done in real time on the fly. While much of it can be done after the fact on your laptop anywhere. And yes, dammit it takes some time. But then others of had 30,000-$50,000 budgets where that time issue really isn't an issue. Most albums are not kicked out in a single day and the clients know that.

So in the end, it comes down to budget, equipment, sample libraries, and the time allotted. Not everyone is expected to deliver as quickly as the kids behind the counter at McDonald's, at lunchtime. Some folks take weeks, months even years to come up with a single album. Most local bands want their album in only two sessions. And that's where Chris's technique benefits from a time standpoint. And where I might take an entire day? But I like to engineer. It's what I do. It's all I do. It's all I've ever done. And I have my own techniques that while might be somewhat from the past, are still valid production techniques. And also because back in the day, it required our creative skills to come up with just the right sounds. Be them samples or actual real recordings. Prior to 1995, there wasn't much in the way of sample libraries though I did have an Ensoniq sample keyboard because I couldn't afford an Emu-Emulator. Floppy disks and 8-bit samples, couldn't have sounded worse. Still works as a MIDI keyboard. I still have it. Not sure why? Plastic organ style keys yuck. And too much money to get my Yamaha C-3 modified into the discliviere (Yeah I spelled that wrong, I think?)

I do have Cue Base 4.0 if I really need to use it which I really don't use. I do everything by hand like I'm still using a razor blade and a china marker a.k.a. grease pencil. In fact software could not work for a change I made throughout an entire song of this person, in that documentary I finished in December. I had more than one live recording of her. She was very consistent but also threw in plenty of different embellishments musically. I synchronized 2 separate recordings of her, together, as one. She was singing with herself and playing with herself or so to speak. And then the piano went four hands. So she sounds like she was double tracking everything. Both piano and voice. And it had to be manually synchronized through more than 100 edits done manually. VocAlign, in ProTools couldn't do the same thing. So it had to be done all by hand. And it's quite unique to listen to considering it came from two entirely different performances from two different years. My recording is very consistent and it was all done on her Behringer six input PA head to my laptop recorder. Other cuts in the documentary were done with my API's, Yamaha digital 01v. And you won't hear any real difference but I do. When you get your gain staging right, everything sounds good. And she always performs on her Beta 58 almost sounds like a condenser microphone only better. LOL. Because it's the right microphone for the job. It's the right one on her. It's what she wants to perform on. And she has a huge and powerful voice. So judicious usage of dynamic range compression and limiting was also necessary. Yet that Behringer doesn't offer that. So I also ride level. Each and every edit I made was faded in and faded out also. This required that I manually insert each one of those fades along with each one of those over 100 edits. And that's what real audio engineers do when it's required of them. I was given carte blanche on this documentary production. I wanted a different sound to her title track. So I doubled her. This ain't the kind of editing your mother taught you. And I even fixed one of the notes her voice cracked on. This is all processed from an already mixed stereo recording that was not multitracked. And no one can understand how I did this? LOL. Though I can tell you I got the joint out of my nose on this one. This production started as a cable access show and now is in the hands of Discovery Networks. I came in late on that production though I was part of it from the start, indirectly. They relied a lot on my live musical footage and recording. They screwed it up royally! And then they gave me a screen credit. I told them they would either have to remove my screen credit or allow me to fix their/my audio. They agreed to do that.

So I fixed the audio really nicely throughout the entire production. All of the interviews have been remixed, reprocessed. A new rock 'n roll soundtrack was added throughout the entire production. But the picture,oh that picture... vomit city. Blown out exposures. Lousy lighting. Flat lighting. Pastel colors. No depth of field. Middle-aged guys with big boobs... oh lord LOL. No color correction. Generally, Ugh. So for the following four months time, it is now a widescreen, re-lit, color corrected, visually enhanced, full-length 1 1/2 hour feature rock 'n roll documentary. Designed for widescreen theatrical release not 16 x 9 TV. I have improved women's complexions. I've created depth of field by blowing the backgrounds out of focus. Cropped everything many different ways. Took an old 1980s TV clip and re-edited each and every camera cut, framing and color enhancement. New titles throughout. White with black edges and straight edge drop shadows so it can be read over any background image. Pretty cool digital software lighting techniques. And if it doesn't play on Discovery Networks you're likely to see it on HBO late night? National Geographic? One of those. And that was all done ITB. I even changed a backyard image to looking more like something from Malibu Beach. I took the guys house out of the picture and surrounded him with lush greenery and pretty colored flowers. He said but it was my house? Yeah, the lower left-hand corner of the white stucco and part of a window. Some dirt and shrubs. Blah. Now its rosy looking wood patio with an afternoon golden sun, lush greenery and pretty flowers. And the psychologist in her office, blond haired blue-eyed, no makeup, green jacket against a bright orange wall OMG! She now only has a darkened room. A single spotlight on her, software cosmetics and a red spotlight on a dark wall behind her. She also had no makeup. She now has it from software color correction. You can even now see the blue in their eyes and her rosy cheeks instead of the wash out it was before. And there is a limit as to what you can do when folks go over 100% video white. And some of the interviews that was a lockdown of two folks now looks to be three separate cameras. And those tight shots are less than 120-150 lines of resolution. You should see this on a 46 inch display! You wouldn't believe it. This is what engineering is all about audio or video. However you have to get there. Whatever you have to do. Whatever tools you have. However long it takes.

I can't legally post this documentary that is lush with great rock 'n roll from Georgie Jessup. And her shot and her track was the worst of this documentary production. And she was the featured person of the documentary. So much for cable access guys and their expertise. They were taught by a gal who was taught by a guy I worked with at NBC who I taught how to do better audio for his NBC-TV network productions. It didn't quite trickle back the right way obviously LOL? Entry-level enthusiasts are dangerous! I've shown this to a few others. They tell me it looks like any other network television production. Right. As it should. From where I came from. The distributor told me he could not sell the production as they had presented to him because it was awful looking and sounding. So he was very happy to have me come on board. He was very excited when I told him what I was going to deliver and I did just that. And he had just signed I think a three-year contract with Discovery Networks? He distributes a lot of educational and other entry-level style documentaries. He said you wouldn't believe how bad some of this stuff looks and sounds he gets. I can believe it LOL. Not everybody gets to work for the greatest US network television operation for 20 years and you learn some things.

So it much of the work I get now today while I wanted to be audio because I have the best because I am the best, I get mostly video work. Shooting, editing, directing, multi-camera events of live musical entertainment productions. And all I really wanted to do was record and shoot some rock 'n roll LOL. So now I'm doing corporate video, training videos and I'm being encouraged to actually produce some documentaries. OMG? My career is going in another direction. It's OK. It's all part of my field even if it is far field and where I prefer my near fields LOL. I'm not sure how to field this sentence structure? So how can I be expected to produce any kind of comprehensive or cohesive documentary film/video?

HA ADD R US. If you didn't think 13+ months of editing is easy for a person like myself? You don't know HA ADD. And when you're the only one, no transcripts, no rundowns, vague requests, it's a monumental undertaking. All pro bono damn it all. I had to be learning as I was going. I knew what I had to look like. Getting there was a whole mother thing. I wasn't prepared for multi-layered digital compositing color correction, exposer correction, focal changes. But it had come out right on the first try. Something I'm very good at doing obviously I guess? I'm surprised myself through the years! Always trial by fire throughout my career. And you know that when the going gets tough the tough get going. And that's me. Nothing can stop me in my huge field. So don't let anything stop you. I would have rather used my training on the Avid Media Composer and used da Vinci color correction but all I had was Sony Vegas 9. And I think actually worked from highly compressed QuickTime proxy files as this was originally an Apple Final Cut Pro. And all I got was a disk drive of files I knew were 10 times too small. But the producer insisted this is what they used for their original production. He didn't know what a proxy file was? He didn't know how to use FCP 10? Neither do I. But I know that's how the Avid Media Composer works for off-line editing purposes. Then it assembles everything from the uncompressed master files on the NAS drives. But this halfwit cable access producer swore this is all they gave him. Right, of course. He didn't understand when they told him they were going to be wiping their disk drives clean at the cable access station. Great! No wonder I had processing problems? No wonder the picture looked soft. But they had ingested from hundreds of hours of standard definition DV 4 x 3 tapes. But it had to be delivered yesterday for the distributor. Mother nature doesn't like it when you have to add vertical image enhancement on 10:1 compressed proxy files that you are also reducing the resolution of because you have to make it widescreen not 4 x 3 LOL. I'm rather proud and pleased how this turned out but it was a nightmare hair ppuller. Certainly far from perfect. If they want it fixed, they can offer up some bucks for me to do it. It's got its rough spots from burnout times. It started as a lovely gracious gesture. It consumed one year of my life.

Now I need a new camcorder! It never ends.
Mx. Remy Ann David

LJ25, post: 398660 wrote: Hi Everyone,

Been a long time since I have posted on here but I am after a bit of help in taking my mixes to the next level.

Here is my latest recording for the band:

[MEDIA=soundcloud]a-moment-lost/honour-and-obey-v2-ep-pre

I have recorded in Cubase SX with a Blackstar Series one 200 amp head DI for guitars (both double tracked) and an Orange Terror Bass DI into a motu 8pre.

I am looking generally to make my mixes bigger and with more depth. I have very roughly mastered it myself too using PSP Vintage Warmer, a little EQ to remove unwanted frequencies then limited with Waves Ultra-maximiser. I know I should get a pro to do this but money is an issue until I have my mix as I want it.

Drums are ok. Unless there is something you want to add I am generally happy with them.

OK, Short of Micing up my guitar and bass cabs what do I need to do to make this mix sound bigger, more full, with more depth and a bit more punch. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

Lou

New member just registered and I checked out their IRs and Reamping .
This is exactly the sound I am talking about. I love this.

[="http://www.frozensunaudio.com/premium-irs/fenris/"]Fenris | Frozen Sun Audio[/]="http://www.frozensu…"]Fenris | Frozen Sun Audio[/]
[[url=http://="http://www.frozensu…"]Minotaur | Frozen Sun Audio[/]="http://www.frozensu…"]Minotaur | Frozen Sun Audio[/]

You love that? Really? What is there to love about it? Are you sure you're not suffering from early Alzheimer's?

I can still remember my name I think?
Yeah it's UM... wait a minute... I'll get it.
Let me get back to you about that.

I love the sound of the Axe for this style. Much better mix here than with the OP. Here there is weight to the mix; Balls, better lower mids. Although I don't much care for the style, it translates into a hyper tension panic sound lol ( might get a heart attack any day hehe), but I still appreciate the creative energy and mix!

I think I get why the drums aren't as big as I would like, the guitar is the focal point and like I've always thought with speed, you need to use more aggressive HPF.
I do wonder how my Neos would translate the bottom end with this style though. I don't think I'll ever max the headroom out on that beast.

After listening to a bunch of tracks in this style, all the kicks sound like a cheezy drum machine kick with a HPF.
Anyone care to explain the mixing approach?

I'm really with you on that all away Chris. It's definitely well done. That cheesy drum machine bass drum with the high pass filter, yeah, doesn't do a thing for me. Pushes me further away more than anything else. And if someone's playing that, they're not human, not really, not exactly. Because it doesn't sound real. I like real. Real instruments. Real people. Real talent. Real good recordings. And I appreciate this kind of energy in this genre. Yeah, it poops you out. But I think that's what it's designed to do. We all needed to get our energy out of our systems in our younger days. I certainly cannot fault that or those that enjoy that. Doesn't mean I want to do that or listen to it. I can even appreciate bigoted Nazis. We all need somebody to laugh at and to hate don't we? Seems to be the human condition to me? And if that wasn't the case? We wouldn't have CNN. Or where I worked. None of them. And that yet more people would be out of work. So violence is good. It keeps people employed.

They're very well rehearsed in the Middle East
Mx. Remy Ann David

I was going to carry on with my previous mix on here quite some time ago but in all honesty it all got a little bit intense for me. I am always keen to hear opinions on how to improve things and how to make things better but must say this thread got a bit ridiculous. All I wanted was help about how to make the mix of what was already recorded better and I was making fantastic progress with all your help until it became a bit of a diplomatic keyboard warrior battle ground.

I would still very much like some help in my mixes if still willing but I cannot stress enough my set up will remain the same and as much as I would love to record fully natural drums and have years of free time to gate them and edit them and eq them. I like most people have a full time job, and other commitments. So as last time I will be posting a bit of work on here in the next couple of weeks. I am currently re-recording my original track which was posted in the same way but I have taken note of all "realistic" and constructive suggestions and done my best to implement them.

So my key points I took from this (which has massively helped my mixing):

1. My sub is now more or less off.
2. I have greatly reduced the amount of compression on ALL drums which has had amazing results.
3. A lot more headroom in my channel faders.
4. More intelligent use of reverb (less is more etc).
5. Giving the low end more room to breath.

If anyone is still interested in helping I would love to hear from you when I am finished my tracking work. Hopefully next week now.

Apologies for the rant but was just hoping to keep on topic.

So, went with a different song as I feel its got a bit more going on and makes for a more interesting mix.
Feels to me like I am getting something odd going on in the mid-low frequencies. Removed LOADS of compression from the drums and dialled the guitar tones in much easier with them.

As last time. A bit of constructive criticism would be appreciated.

[MEDIA=soundcloud]amomentlouis/dig-deep-instrumental