The way I see it, there isn't an all in one solution. The arguably more important part initially is recording channels. The zed gives you pres and eqs, as well as computer connectivity. The computer connectivity may or may not work well with your aurura. But it does cover the pre and eq, and even headphones sends, and keeps your hands one something better than a mouse.

The bonus is the daw control. If you find it suits your needs, perfect. If not it's much easier to add 8ch controller units as time and money allow, than to add a board.

The zed seems like a logical first step. It may so everything you need. If it doesn't play nice w your aurura you could add another aurura and still use the ssd's analog sections. If it doesn't fufill the daw control satisfactory enough then there's always the ability to add artist mix units or whatever you choose.

The zed seems like a solid foundation, and just may be the whole house. If not, you don't diminish the Zeus usefulness by adding conversion or controllers, you enhance it.

Most importantly it gets you your required recording channels, and gives you an interface/conversion for your 2nd daw.

To me this gets you in gear the fastest. Vs coverter so no pres, or an elaborate control surface setup that you may not need.

Sean G, post: 440468, member: 49362 wrote: Most DAW's (except Studio One) have a siliocne numeric keyboard overlay that shows all the keyboard shortcuts...you can even buy dedicated keyboards for the task.

There are other vendors, like Editor Keys, that sell both full mac keyboards, and/or skins for StudioOne. And you probably already use the FaderPort for general Transport and jumping between Markers.

dvdhawk, post: 440514, member: 36047 wrote: There are other vendors, like Editor Keys, that sell both full mac keyboards, and/or skins for StudioOne. And you probably already use the FaderPort for general Transport and jumping between Markers.

Actually I'm using the Nuendo Keypad more and more! I was brain dead when I posted about the transport. And yes, the faderport at times as well.
Thanks Dave

kmetal, post: 440513, member: 37533 wrote: The way I see it, there isn't an all in one solution. The arguably more important part initially is recording channels. The zed gives you pres and eqs, as well as computer connectivity. The computer connectivity may or may not work well with your aurura. But it does cover the pre and eq, and even headphones sends, and keeps your hands one something better than a mouse.

The bonus is the daw control. If you find it suits your needs, perfect. If not it's much easier to add 8ch controller units as time and money allow, than to add a board.

The zed seems like a logical first step. It may so everything you need. If it doesn't play nice w your aurura you could add another aurura and still use the ssd's analog sections. If it doesn't fufill the daw control satisfactory enough then there's always the ability to add artist mix units or whatever you choose.

The zed seems like a solid foundation, and just may be the whole house. If not, you don't diminish the Zeus usefulness by adding conversion or controllers, you enhance it.

Most importantly it gets you your required recording channels, and gives you an interface/conversion for your 2nd daw.

To me this gets you in gear the fastest. Vs coverter so no pres, or an elaborate control surface setup that you may not need.

The Aurora thing does concern me a bit but I'll likely just have to try.

You're right about the pres, send options and no mouse.

I don't know what you mean about using the solid state drive's analog sections with 32 channels of ADDC???? Could you help me understand?

And last but certainly not least, I wonder if the ADDA's of the ZED would be a noticeable quality step down to the aurora?
I think you are right about the ZED being a good foundation piece even if I have to add controllers later.

vibrations1951, post: 440517, member: 34341 wrote: I don't know what you mean about using the solid state drive's analog sections with 32 channels of ADDC???? Could you help me understand?

I'm sorry my auto correct has a mind of its own, And not exactly a bright mind. Lol.

I mean the zeds analog section.

So what I meant was even if you had to add coverters your main part of the board (the analogue parts) don't get put to waste.

My main concern is the connectivity of the converters. How are you connecting the aurura? Looks like there's a few options. Seems like they all do 16ch up to 96k and TB does 32 ch across the board.

W the zed my concern would be the FireWire connectivity vs the conversion quality. The big question as far as conversation / channel count is when do you picture yourself past 16ch and still recording integral instruments, where slight differences in conversion would be noticable. Your gonna notice a difference between Lynx and something in a different class. The question is does it matter? I've abc'd MOTU, apogee Rosetta, and apogee ensemble, one night at the studio. And the Rosetta was noticeably better. The ensemble was muddy by comparison. And the MOTU was pedestrian. The Rosetta did one thing. Convert audio. And it did it the best by 2-3 points on the scale. The more features you add the less quality you get in each part, unless the price goes up in direct propetion. Even then. Squeezing stuff in requires design compromises of space and power consumption. By the time you get everything all in one you've got a huge, power hungry, fantastic piece of gear.

it comes down to what you need each component for in a real world scenerio, and that's what determines if it's a good fit. I did some google searching cuz I'm interested. Here's some quick finds.

This thing converts, does hui mode (not sure how many channels) it's got pres, just the words in the description vs the zed allude to a difference in the target marketing. I've never used this. But it would seem it's equal or better than the zed. Being digital it's got full instant recall. Again I've never used it so I have no clue but it's very closely priced to the zed.

http://www.proaudiostar.com/midas-m32r.html#info

This thing doesn't have pres, but does 16ch of adda (burr-brown) via USB. It's 1k more than the zed. But it's neve. The adda is more money the second link is for the whole thing w the faders. W auxes out, and pre/post fader option it really opens a lot of options. And it's neve. There is also a recall software for re setting the knobs. It's got no eq but the internal circuitry probably 'betterizes' things in a way only excellent eqs could exceed.

http://vintageking.com/neve-8816-summing-mixer?gclid=CjwKEAjwiru9BRDwyKmR08L3iS0SJABN8T4vOjLAp5hCZBBHecQ1UgK2Vy18SglvkTwwWRlvxH7UjhoCX-Xw_wcB

http://vintageking.com/neve-8816-summing-package#description

Sorry everything I suggest is always more expensive. I just like things that do one job well. I've spent so much time on prosumer hear that when I do use the good stuff it's always easier, faster, more fun, and a better end result. The price difference are usually 30-1000% more. And some things like an sm 57 are both cheap and killer. Or a eureka channel. Or a peq 15. Some things sound way better than they should for the price. Most things however are priced directly proportional to quality. Exceptions are usually high channel count like the Orion, foreign (asian) made like audio technica. Usually it's something cheap to mid priced that sounds mid priced or pro entry. There's very few pieces that are both pro standard and priced budget or mid.

From my research in the past year and a half on gear and computers the best way to 'save' money is to no buy features you don't absolutely need. No fat. That and riding the line of significant diminishing returns. Like conversion Orion or aururA is at a good point. To get even slightly 'better' your doubling the price per channel. And it gets to a point where it may not be better just different. As soon as you get to the point where conversion is 'out of the way' imho your at a good point. W MOTU or worse you lose something in the translation. That's not good. As long as it maintains the integrity of whatever is plugged in, it's doing its job. Boutique conversion is cool, but not at the expense of high end things prior to it in the chain first. Conversion is computer stuff. Moore's law applies. In reality where only on 3rd gen standalone conversion / interfaces so, it's likely we will see lower pricing and higher quality with better latency specs for a while. For the record I've decided on an RME babyface for my main adda on my portable rig. Maybe something like that would fit your requirements for mixdown adda. I felt it's the lowest step into truly pro. The step past MOTU. And it's German designed so therefore cool. Lol, sorry boz I've realized the English engineering is pretty freakin awsome too!

kmetal, post: 440511, member: 37533 wrote: Would connection type ie USB, TB, FireWire, madi, Effect the clocking ability, if all else was the same?

If so is there preferred connection for stable clocking?

No, in high-quality gear, clocks are either internal or are brought in on external connectors or embedded in external data feeds. In the last 5 - 10 years, there has been a gradual change in the design of the treatment of brought-in clocks. The trend in quality modern gear is always to run the conversions from the internal low phase-noise clock; in this way, the design can be optimised for just that one clock. External clocks from BNC inputs, ADAT, S/PDIF etc are conditioned and then, rather than replace the internal clock, are used to control its frequency so that it matches the external source. The control loop that does this is very tight but low-bandwidth, so is largely unaffected by jitter on the incoming clock signal. The result is that, unless an external clock is of particularly poor quality, the conversion clock always has very much the same jitter and noise specifications.

kmetal, post: 440519, member: 37533 wrote: How are you connecting the aurura?

Right now it's AES (PCIe card, Lynx AES 16e) Ii and out of Box 1 (Mac Pro, Nuendo) from outboard pres and the Mix Wiz direct outs. I also use it as a 2 bus monitor point of Box 1 for my Dangerous ST.

kmetal, post: 440519, member: 37533 wrote: W the zed my concern would be the FireWire connectivity vs the conversion quality. The big question as far as conversation / channel count is when do you picture yourself past 16ch and still recording integral instruments, where slight differences in conversion would be noticable. Your gonna notice a difference between Lynx and something in a different class. The question is does it matter?

Well, even if I don't need more than 16 channels, I may want to use an outboard pre for vocals or acoustic instruments. I thought those feeds could go through better conversion available with the Aurora rather than being put through the ZED (as insert or through the ZED pres as well on the way into the DAW) and if I'm understanding correctly, end up using the Zed conversions.

I think I get your point, so even if I need more channels than the 16 (big drum kit/extra percussion, stereo electric guit. amp DI's plus multiple cab mics, various keys all at once...I am a strong proponent of tracking the whole group at once "old school style" and then dub-over where needed later), I could use the ZED (and it's conversion qualities) for percussion/electric guitar/bass/keys and leave signals that would benefit from a step up in conversion quality to the aurora. I guess so much depends on how well the DAW/Mac play with the Aurora and Zed conversion at the same time.

kmetal, post: 440519, member: 37533 wrote: it comes down to what you need each component for in a real world scenerio, and that's what determines if it's a good fit.

YUP....

kmetal, post: 440519, member: 37533 wrote: Sorry everything I suggest is always more expensive. I just like things that do one job well

and I couldn't agree more.

kmetal, post: 440519, member: 37533 wrote: As long as it maintains the integrity of whatever is plugged in, it's doing its job. Boutique conversion is cool, but not at the expense of high end things prior to it in the chain first.

That's good sound advice for me.

I went back over my own posts for the past 2 1/2 years on what to do next in moving my rig forward and "need" verses "wants". This quest was beneficial because I made gains in my chops and understanding and have narrowed my preferred workflow to hybrid, utilizing the 2 Box concept with an analog pass. That's a good thing! I was able to slowly add and delete components to make this work without breaking the bank.

I've also noticed that I get all worked up (cart before the horse) about once a year and feel the "need" to take another step forward, even though I have no actual demands to do so because beyond recording my own stuff/band for our fun and sometimes demos, I have no clients!

It would be nice to have better pres to track with right now but in reality, right now, that is a "want". I am so sick of the mouse and the Faderport is just a tease. So in terms of "need" I feel justified in taking the control surface piece another step forward, which would be a need in my learning curve as well I think. (Am I just rationalizing?)

So again, without getting too far into the "want" category for now, it feels like the toss up is Artist Mix (or something similar) or the ZED r16?
The price difference is notable but bang for buck makes the ZED a no brainer I think, if nothing else, the improvement in pres over what I have now.

kmetal, post: 440513, member: 37533 wrote: The zed seems like a logical first step.

The Zed choice would slow my construction funding by a month. I'm finalizing HVAC (mostly labor) as well as AC wiring (some materials and electrician) in an attempt to start insulation and closing in walls (big up front expenses and my labor...good projects for our long winter...first frost shows up in about 2 weeks...ooof!).

So even though a control surface is my only justifiable "need" in my present workflow development, that Zed is very tempting and may be worth the 4% extension of time to gather funds for construction completion/retirement. I have already extended that plan by a year so what's another month....

Before I pull the trigger I think I'll sit with this a little longer and see if you guys have any other thoughts if you don't mind. There's an awful tempting deal on feebay right now for a new Zed with 2-AT 4040's thrown in.

Boswell
One more question if you don't mind?
If I were to step up to the Zed R16, would there be a significant improvement in pre quality over my Mix Wiz?

vibrations1951, post: 440528, member: 34341 wrote: Boswell
One more question if you don't mind?
If I were to step up to the Zed R16, would there be a significant improvement in pre quality over my Mix Wiz?

Yes.

Boswell, post: 440530, member: 29034 wrote: Yes.

As I figured. Ah well....

I've learned a lot through this thread and appreciate the input. I've also taken to heart K's comments as well.

I did a serious finances overview and considering the stage of my build, I'm gonna go with one Artist Mix for now until my next "need" arises. Perhaps a Zed someday...
Again, thanks so much for your patience and feedback Bos.

kmetal Kyle, thanks to you too man! Good luck with your process and I'll keep lurking!

dvdhawk, post: 440514, member: 36047 wrote: There are other vendors, like Editor Keys, that sell both full mac keyboards, and/or skins for StudioOne. And you probably already use the FaderPort for general Transport and jumping between Markers.

I have seen them Dave (dvdhawk...I currently use an Apple keyboard with a PC) but I searched for one of those silicone overlays to suit the keyboard but they only do them for the Apple laptop from there and other makers seem to only do the overlay to suit my keyboard for just about every other DAW but Studio One.

The thing is, I can't really justify paying 3 times what an Apple keyboard costs for their version of the Apple keyboard with the color coded shortcut keys...that seems a little OTT to me...
and the black PC Studio One keyboard they offer appear to be a cheap plastic keyboard that many have had issues with keys not working or falling off if you go by the reviews ( I think this was the backlit one from memory...?)

As an outsider to this thread looking in, and as someone who doesn't actually own any of their gear but who has used it in the past, I can say that my experiences with any A&H gear I've ever used has always been positive.
I've always really liked the sound of their mic pres, and it's been my impression that they always seem to put solid thought and focus into the layouts and features of their consoles.

I recently did a hired-gun session at a small studio where they were using the Zed R-16, and while I'd heard good things about the Zed in the past, I'd never actually had the opportunity to use one before.
I was very impressed by its sonics. If I was looking to get into a reasonably affordable hybrid workflow/layout that wouldn't cost me a kidney and a lung - LOL -, based on what I recently heard and experienced with that Zed 16, I can say with full confidence that one of the Zed models would be a serious contender.
With the exception of perhaps the Presonus SL series, I'm not sure that there really would be a similarly-priced choice over the A&H, that would sound as good as what I heard. I'm not saying there isn't something else as good in the same price range... I'm just saying I'm not aware of any ... (I'm happy to be given alternatives to consider).

Anyway, For whatever my opinion is worth on the subject... ;)

DonnyThompson, post: 440537, member: 46114 wrote: I was very impressed by its sonics. If I was looking to get into a reasonably affordable hybrid workflow/layout that wouldn't cost me a kidney and a lung - LOL -, based on what I recently heard and experienced with that Zed 16, I can say with full confidence that one of the Zed models would be a serious contender.
With the exception of perhaps the Presonus SL series, I'm not sure that there really would be a similarly-priced choice over the A&H, that would sound as good as what I heard. I'm not saying there isn't something else as good in the same price range... I'm just saying I'm not aware of any ... (I'm happy to be given alternatives to consider).

At this level in the A+H range, it's only the Zed-R16 and the GS-R24 (i.e. the full Recording models) that have the top-quality pre-amps. The other Zed non-R models have perfectly respectable pre-amps for live sound mixers, but from my experience they are not in the same league as those in the two R models.

Boswell, post: 440524, member: 29034 wrote: No, in high-quality gear, clocks are either internal or are brought in on external connectors or embedded in external data feeds. In the last 5 - 10 years, there has been a gradual change in the design of the treatment of brought-in clocks. The trend in quality modern gear is always to run the conversions from the internal low phase-noise clock; in this way, the design can be optimised for just that one clock. External clocks from BNC inputs, ADAT, S/PDIF etc are conditioned and then, rather than replace the internal clock, are used to control its frequency so that it matches the external source. The control loop that does this is very tight but low-bandwidth, so is largely unaffected by jitter on the incoming clock signal. The result is that, unless an external clock is of particularly poor quality, the conversion clock always has very much the same jitter and noise specifications.

Awsome really good to know.

vibrations1951, post: 440525, member: 34341 wrote: I've also noticed that I get all worked up (cart before the horse) about once a year and feel the "need" to take another step forward, even though I have no actual demands to do so because beyond recording my own stuff/band for our fun and sometimes demos, I have no clients!

GAS plagues us all buddy.!!

vibrations1951, post: 440525, member: 34341 wrote: So again, without getting too far into the "want" category for now, it feels like the toss up is Artist Mix (or something similar) or the ZED r16?
The price difference is notable but bang for buck makes the ZED a no brainer I think, if nothing else, the improvement in pres over what I have now.

The artist mix plus ISA 828 cost what the zed does roughly. It gives you have as many pre amps. But the digital output card ($500) and a budget interface would expand your channel count for a few hundred. Something like the asp800 or octopre is probably along the lines of the zed pres but omit eq.

Even if the zed does play nice the system as a shoe would be reduced to FireWire latency performance, unless you use two seperate configurations in the sound card options and swapped between the two. Plus FireWire is being phased out. USB is long term safe, and Thunderbolt and Ethernet are the two new kids. Ethernet probably not going out of fashion along w USB.

Maybe a lynx 8 used and an 8ch pre amp would fit the bill? Not sure if they daisy chain. But that also goes 2k above the zed unless you got an octo pre .

vibrations1951, post: 440525, member: 34341 wrote: first frost shows up in about 2 weeks...ooof!).

Man and to think 8 hours south I woke in a pool of sweat!!!!

kmetal, post: 440542, member: 37533 wrote: Awsome really good to know.

GAS plagues us all buddy.!!

The artist mix plus ISA 828 cost what the zed does roughly. It gives you have as many pre amps. But the digital output card ($500) and a budget interface would expand your channel count for a few hundred. Something like the asp800 or octopre is probably along the lines of the zed pres but omit eq.

Even if the zed does play nice the system as a shoe would be reduced to FireWire latency performance, unless you use two seperate configurations in the sound card options and swapped between the two. Plus FireWire is being phased out. USB is long term safe, and Thunderbolt and Ethernet are the two new kids. Ethernet probably not going out of fashion along w USB.

Maybe a lynx 8 used and an 8ch pre amp would fit the bill? Not sure if they daisy chain. But that also goes 2k above the zed unless you got an octo pre .

Man and to think 8 hours south I woke in a pool of sweat!!!!

I wish I had someone with a ZED to try out with my system so I could make a decision down the road when ready. It would be a very inexpensive way to gain a nice batch of pres and not have to upgrade my computer end of things before getting started with clients.

I tried to analyze the signal flow from the block diagram to see if there would be a way to bypass the onboard converters and use the analog output from each channel separately. That way, at the least, I could record with those pres through my Aurora. I think this would work tapping out through the inserts, unbalanced. Not sure if I could use the EQ this way or not also?

I don't think I would know if my setup would be clean enough power/grounding wise to allow this without hum issues. I am using an Equitech power supply (Massive Toroidial Transformer) which is damn clean but I probably wouldn't know until I try. If and when I'm ready I'll have to ask Bos about this as he is quite the expert when it comes to the A+H stuff and obviously so much more.

On another note, we do live at 600' above sea level so we gain about a month up here after other folks get their frost. Gives us a little longer growing season and easier to harvest the garden!
Later!

DonnyThompson, post: 440537, member: 46114 wrote: As an outsider to this thread looking in, and as someone who doesn't actually own any of their gear but who has used it in the past, I can say that my experiences with any A&H gear I've ever used has always been positive.
I've always really liked the sound of their mic pres, and it's been my impression that they always seem to put solid thought and focus into the layouts and features of their consoles.

I recently did a hired-gun session at a small studio where they were using the Zed R-16, and while I'd heard good things about the Zed in the past, I'd never actually had the opportunity to use one before.
I was very impressed by its sonics. If I was looking to get into a reasonably affordable hybrid workflow/layout that wouldn't cost me a kidney and a lung - LOL -, based on what I recently heard and experienced with that Zed 16, I can say with full confidence that one of the Zed models would be a serious contender.
With the exception of perhaps the Presonus SL series, I'm not sure that there really would be a similarly-priced choice over the A&H, that would sound as good as what I heard. I'm not saying there isn't something else as good in the same price range... I'm just saying I'm not aware of any ... (I'm happy to be given alternatives to consider).

Anyway, For whatever my opinion is worth on the subject... ;)

Thanks for chiming in Donny! It helps me feel even more confident about the ZED.....perhaps a year from now! Off to more searching for a reasonable price on an Artist Mix....

vibrations1951, post: 440550, member: 34341 wrote: I tried to analyze the signal flow from the block diagram to see if there would be a way to bypass the onboard converters and use the analog output from each channel separately. That way, at the least, I could record with those pres through my Aurora. I think this would work tapping out through the inserts, unbalanced. Not sure if I could use the EQ this way or not also?

I don't think I would know if my setup would be clean enough power/grounding wise to allow this without hum issues. I am using an Equitech power supply (Massive Toroidial Transformer) which is damn clean but I probably wouldn't know until I try. If and when I'm ready I'll have to ask Bos about this as he is quite the expert when it comes to the A+H stuff and obviously so much more.

On the Zed-R16, the ADCs are normally pre-EQ, but the uppermost of the 4 buttons next to the channel faders switches that to post-EQ on a per-channel basis. You can take the signals out through the inserts, unbalanced as you say, but the Aurora will have no problem with that. Use a TS-TS jack lead for this unless you want the channel's signal to go on through the mixer as well as coming out from the insert jack. In the latter case, you will need either to wire your own TRS leads or use the Hosa DOC106 adaptors and conventional TS looms.

I can almost guarantee you would have no hum problems with taking unbalanced signals out of the insert jacks, provided you are sensible about which outlets you have your mains leads plugged into.

Boswell, post: 440552, member: 29034 wrote: On the Zed-R16, the ADCs are normally pre-EQ, but the uppermost of the 4 buttons next to the channel faders switches that to post-EQ on a per-channel basis. You can take the signals out through the inserts, unbalanced as you say, but the Aurora will have no problem with that. Use a TS-TS jack lead for this unless you want the channel's signal to go on through the mixer as well as coming out from the insert jack. In the latter case, you will need either to wire your own TRS leads or use the Hosa DOC106 adaptors and conventional TS looms.

I can almost guarantee you would have no hum problems with taking unbalanced signals out of the insert jacks, provided you are sensible about which outlets you have your mains leads plugged into.

Thanks for clarifying all that Bos. This helps clear my thinking up so much more. I could certainly build the adapters and a TS multi-cable snake with what I have on hand now and some multichannel cable.. With the analog signal carrying through, it opens up a lot of options for my analog pass between Boxes.

My thinking (lack of experience) had me hung up on how I could utilize the analog sections of the board. I was reading the manual and the block diagram over and over but not really understanding what was actually pretty clearly stated.

As I draw back and see this all a little more clearly, with the functionality and quality of the ZED, plus what I've got, I think I'd have a respectable rig with at least 16 record channels and 25 potential pres of decent variety to open my shop with.

I wouldn't have to upgrade a thing for a while, and then have money to focus on better reference speakers, patchbay, and cabling to open with. Then, if needed later, another Aurora 16 if I had the need and be up and going sooner. This could likely get me by for a good amount of time while I'm getting established. I would then be able to fine tune and be comfortable with a familiar workflow upon opening.

Another somewhat minor but reasonable point I think is that I was beginning to envision a very cluttered workspace build with the ST control, Artist Mix, Console, screen/(s), mouse and keyboard all crammed in front of and by me. This would cut the clutter some.

I have various pieces of this and that about I could likely sell to gain an extra 500-700$ with any luck. I've been poking around the net "in my spare time" and found a dealer offering 10% off for the next week or 2 and free shipping. This may be doable yet....

I wonder if this is just more GAS (gear acquisition syndrome or my pure hot air)??????
Sorry for the rambling.

Thanks once again Bos.
I greatly appreciate your knowledge, patience and generosity. I really could never be this far without support like yours and so many others here!
I hope someday I too can be there for others, yet I fear that's a long way off.

I'll try to follow up when I feel ready to make a final choice.

vibrations1951, post: 440551, member: 34341 wrote: Thanks for chiming in Donny! It helps me feel even more confident about the ZED.....perhaps a year from now! Off to more searching for a reasonable price on an Artist Mix....

Unfortunately I won't be able to hit this cycle of the sale, but next time hopefully I'll be ready. I've been eyeing the artist mix for a while. Looks like it's on sale for the month.

http://vintageking.com/sale/monthly-specials-2/260-off-avid-artist-mix-3

kmetal, post: 440562, member: 37533 wrote: Unfortunately I won't be able to hit this cycle of the sale, but next time hopefully I'll be ready. I've been eyeing the artist mix for a while. Looks like it's on sale for the month.

http://vintageking.com/sale/monthly-specials-2/260-off-avid-artist-mix-3

Thanks K
I must be off my rocker! See my last post for more of my insane thinking.
I'm nuts.....I know it....I've got the credentials to prove it.
Please tell me I'm wrong!

kmetal, post: 440562, member: 37533 wrote: Unfortunately I won't be able to hit this cycle of the sale, but next time hopefully I'll be ready. I've been eyeing the artist mix for a while. Looks like it's on sale for the month.

http://vintageking.com/sale/monthly-specials-2/260-off-avid-artist-mix-3

I was tracking a couple on ebay for around 725. Maybe not the safest bet. I also just missed one at Gearslutz by 2 days for 700. I'm gonna take that as a sign right?!

I don't think the zed is a bad idea. My feelings on it (not that it matters a whole lot) was it does a lot for the money and covers a lot of bases. The way I see it is if you are thinking of it, then start w the zed. Then see if there's any holes you need to fill be it coversion, pre amp, or control surface.

As long as your keeping the notion that it may (or may not) fill all your needs it's perfect. There's a reasonable chance you might not need an additional fader control surface.

You also might, but able to score a not action nocturn for like $50 since your system is using the OS it is. It's a pluggin controller. The most useful feature is the 'speed knob' one knob where it automatically control whatever pluggin parameter your mouse of hove were over. So basically the mouse hovers w one hand and the other is on the knob. This is fast. Really fast. And intuitive. There is no better way I've seen to control plugins. If they made a new one I'd buy it just for the speed knob for 4x he original price. Unjust sold mine a few weeks ago. There were no drivers for W10 os. Anyway
Just figured I'd mention it.

The artist mix is not cheap, and really only does one thing, and does it well. So it's something to be sure you want/need.

The huge plus in my book w the zed is eq. I really really value eq on the way in. Some don't.

vibrations1951, post: 440564, member: 34341 wrote: I was tracking a couple on ebay for around 725. Maybe not the safest bet. I also just missed one at Gearslutz by 2 days for 700. I'm gonna take that as a sign right?!

I would. In the last year or so, everytime I've tried to force a purchase it's ended up not being ideal for one reason or another.

Besides I'm not sure a used control surface is the best bet. My boss grabbed used control surfaces and pre amps, and had some problems with them. Particularly ones that were 'good deals' price wise. A eureka had a bent stuck knob, the control surfaces (mackie mcu) developed some power issues and busted faders. Granted he/we put a lot of hours on them, but still. He ordered and a digidesign c-24 that was straight up broken supposedly during shipping. He ended up w it for next to nothing and it randomly started working.

I've spent as much time fiddling with the mackie d8bs at the other studio than using them. Trips to the tech who works on abbey road tape machines, having him come there, just a nightmare. Basically I've had enough of used half assed stuff lol. Guitars are one thing. Amps too. But my luck w used gear is half hearted. When I buy new I use it till the wheels fall off.

I learned all about broken gear and tech problems in the last 7 years at the studios. Something I'd never experienced before even w my cheap home gear like portastudio and soundblasywr USB sounds cards and HP computers.

Only protools have me problems and that was before the re wrote it properly for Windows and every day machines. It didn't support my 'state or the art' lol core 2 duo pentium laptop. And was a nightmare.

My cousin bought floor model mackie HR8 speakers from sweetwatwr and has ran them every day for 9 years no prob.

I'm a huge fan of motorized faders, but used ones I'd be cautious of. It's one of those things that likely saw very little use, or very much use. Not often anything in the middle imho.

Sorry to ramble.

kmetal, post: 440565, member: 37533 wrote: I don't think the zed is a bad idea. My feelings on it (not that it matters a whole lot) was it does a lot for the money and covers a lot of bases. The way I see it is if you are thinking of it, then start w the zed. Then see if there's any holes you need to fill be it coversion, pre amp, or control surface.

As long as your keeping the notion that it may (or may not) fill all your needs it's perfect. There's a reasonable chance you might not need an additional fader control surface.

You also might, but able to score a not action nocturn for like $50 since your system is using the OS it is. It's a pluggin controller. The most useful feature is the 'speed knob' one knob where it automatically control whatever pluggin parameter your mouse of hove were over. So basically the mouse hovers w one hand and the other is on the knob. This is fast. Really fast. And intuitive. There is no better way I've seen to control plugins. If they made a new one I'd buy it just for the speed knob for 4x he original price. Unjust sold mine a few weeks ago. There were no drivers for W10 os. Anyway
Just figured I'd mention it.

The artist mix is not cheap, and really only does one thing, and does it well. So it's something to be sure you want/need.

The huge plus in my book w the zed is eq. I really really value eq on the way in. Some don't.

Thanks K
From what I can tell right now the Zed may be a darn good fit for me. I like the option. The analog out through the insert to the aurora should be able to access the rout through the EQ if I choose and use the correct routing buttons and cabling if I understood him correctly about this..

He was real helpful in explaining this. As you say, there may be holes later but at the very least, I'll have some nice pres at the right price. I will check out the action nocturne. I've never heard of it.

kmetal, post: 440566, member: 37533 wrote: I would. In the last year or so, everytime I've tried to force a purchase it's ended up not being ideal for one reason or another.

Besides I'm not sure a used control surface is the best bet. My boss grabbed used control surfaces and pre amps, and had some problems with them. Particularly ones that were 'good deals' price wise. A eureka had a bent stuck knob, the control surfaces (mackie mcu) developed some power issues and busted faders. Granted he/we put a lot of hours on them, but still. He ordered and a digidesign c-24 that was straight up broken supposedly during shipping. He ended up w it for next to nothing and it randomly started working.

I've spent as much time fiddling with the mackie d8bs at the other studio than using them. Trips to the tech who works on abbey road tape machines, having him come there, just a nightmare. Basically I've had enough of used half assed stuff lol. Guitars are one thing. Amps too. But my luck w used gear is half hearted. When I buy new I use it till the wheels fall off.

I learned all about broken gear and tech problems in the last 7 years at the studios. Something I'd never experienced before even w my cheap home gear like portastudio and soundblasywr USB sounds cards and HP computers.

Only protools have me problems and that was before the re wrote it properly for Windows and every day machines. It didn't support my 'state or the art' lol core 2 duo pentium laptop. And was a nightmare.

My cousin bought floor model mackie HR8 speakers from sweetwatwr and has ran them every day for 9 years no prob.

I'm a huge fan of motorized faders, but used ones I'd be cautious of. It's one of those things that likely saw very little use, or very much use. Not often anything in the middle imho.

Sorry to ramble.

Great ramble!
I am still tweaked a bit about not having mechanized faders but will have to see for myself if this is a problem for me.
The Nocturn seems to be $99. Interesting idea....something for me to consider.
Thanks

vibrations1951, post: 440567, member: 34341 wrote: I like the option. The analog out through the insert to the aurora should be able to access the rout through the EQ if I choose and use the correct routing buttons and cabling if I understood him correctly about this..

Yeah that's absolutely huge!!!

vibrations1951, post: 440568, member: 34341 wrote: Great ramble!
I am still tweaked a bit about not having mechanized faders but will have to see for myself if this is a problem for me.

Honestly i think I'm on the minority side of the concensus especially w the guys around here. I'm a bit of a glutton, and tend to have a princes taste on a paupers budget. It's like once I discover a 'better way' I'm not longer satisfied w the previous way, even if it's a small diff.

There's a good chance that you'll develop your workflow just fine and 'not know what your missing' or more in reality not be 'missing' anything.

I'm excited for ya man! Keep us posted. I've leaned a lot already from this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing how your hybrid flow develops. I've just picked out my two interfaces to hook up to two new computers, so I'm. Missing the summing box and pre if I end up w the fulcrum.

Curious to see how your system gets hooked up Ect! Cheers man!

kmetal, post: 440570, member: 37533 wrote: Yeah that's absolutely huge!!!

Honestly i think I'm on the minority side of the concensus especially w the guys around here. I'm a bit of a glutton, and tend to have a princes taste on a paupers budget. It's like once I discover a 'better way' I'm not longer satisfied w the previous way, even if it's a small diff.

There's a good chance that you'll develop your workflow just fine and 'not know what your missing' or more in reality not be 'missing' anything.

I'm excited for ya man! Keep us posted. I've leaned a lot already from this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing how your hybrid flow develops. I've just picked out my two interfaces to hook up to two new computers, so I'm. Missing the summing box and pre if I end up w the fulcrum.

Curious to see how your system gets hooked up Ect! Cheers man!

Congrats! You must be pumped! The Folcrom is a nice clean pass for me and I love being able to choose the quality of pre to taste, not that I've done a lot but it's cool!
Good luck and hope to check in soon!
Later
namaste

I was wondering how you felt about having to run it through a pre amp. If you found it a post ice or negative.??

kmetal, post: 440572, member: 37533 wrote: I was wondering how you felt about having to run it through a pre amp. If you found it a post ice or negative.??

Challenges:
Needing to use 2 channel or matching pres between it and the next signal stage, but for me this is rarely a limit.

Because the Folcrom is passive, I find it takes a good amount of "juice" in the pre to boost the signal up after a pass through.

If you want to use the pre during recording as well as monitor Box 2 at the same time, it takes the pre out of your tracking signal path...but that is rarely a problem for me because during tracking, I'm mostly monitoring just box 1.

Again, for me, getting used to buttons for panning is different but not bad.

Positives:
Being able to double duty pres from transparent/clean all the way through the varying colours of others during recording/mixing is really cool I think! If I have the particular chosen pre patched in during recording, I can monitor off Box 1, the analog pass, or Box 2 to help me make choices early on rather than "fix it in the mix.", Then I still have options later...kinda like choosing mics and eq/compression on the way in if that makes sense.

With my modest setup, I forget it's even there most of the time.

I love the flexibility of utilizing what little outboard gear I have in many different configurations in the analog pass. It does take 2 channel gear but I've always tried to purchase stuff this way anyway. My thinking from the start was that I may want to use it on the final 2 bus pass, even before I had any clue about hybrid setups...not that I have a great deal of experience or knowledge now, but I'm loving it so far!

OPTIONS! Even though it can get challenging with patching for me, I love the options and making the most of what gear I have. I think the Folcrom increases these options/flexibility. I'm not stuck with the particular "sound of 1 board". It's like having the choice of a Neve, SSL, etc., based on the colours amd charcteristics of your pres.

I don't know if that helps much because as I say, my experience is very limited as is my opinion.
I'd say that overall, the Folcrom is a big positive for me.

I'm curious to see how I'll use it with a hybrid board in the mix if/when I pull the trigger on the ZED.

By the way, what interfaces did you go with?

vibrations1951, post: 440567, member: 34341 wrote: From what I can tell right now the Zed may be a darn good fit for me. I like the option. The analog out through the insert to the aurora should be able to access the rout through the EQ if I choose and use the correct routing buttons and cabling if I understood him correctly about this.

In my earlier post I was talking about a channel's ADC being switchable between pre- and post-EQ. The insert send is switchable to be either the pre-amp output or the channel's DAC output, but is always pre-EQ.

Boswell, post: 440576, member: 29034 wrote: In my earlier post I was talking about a channel's ADC being switchable between pre- and post-EQ. The insert send is switchable to be either the pre-amp output or the channel's DAC output, but is always pre-EQ.

Thanks for the clarification Bos.

I'm happy to have the use of the pre before the ADC . It's too bad about the EQ but I think I can live w/o it in the meantime with judicious use of mics and my UA Cambridge plugin in my DAW.

Sorry I misled you Kyle.

Boswell, post: 440552, member: 29034 wrote: On the Zed-R16, the ADCs are normally pre-EQ, but the uppermost of the 4 buttons next to the channel faders switches that to post-EQ on a per-channel basis. You can take the signals out through the inserts, unbalanced as you say, but the Aurora will have no problem with that. Use a TS-TS jack lead for this unless you want the channel's signal to go on through the mixer as well as coming out from the insert jack. In the latter case, you will need either to wire your own TRS leads or use the Hosa DOC106 adaptors and conventional TS looms.

I can almost guarantee you would have no hum problems with taking unbalanced signals out of the insert jacks, provided you are sensible about which outlets you have your mains leads plugged into.

Bos, I need to be sure I understand the rest of this correctly.
1. Am I correct in thinking that if I use the cabling done like the DOC106 and TS cable to the Aurora, I could use the rest of the analog functions of the board at the same time as taking the analog signal from the pres as described?
2. Would these signals that "pass on through the mixer" then be able to pass through the EQ as well for the rest of the signal path?
3. So in the latter case utilizing the DOC106 arrangement, because my Aurora is routed to and from the board out to a normalized TRS patchbay via Db25 to TRS, would I need to change this cabling as well?

vibrations1951, post: 440578, member: 34341 wrote: Bos, I need to be sure I understand the rest of this correctly.
1. Am I correct in thinking that if I use the cabling done like the DOC106 and TS cable to the Aurora, I could use the rest of the analog functions of the board at the same time as taking the analog signal from the pres as described?

Yes.

vibrations1951, post: 440578, member: 34341 wrote: 2. Would these signals that "pass on through the mixer" then be able to pass through the EQ as well for the rest of the signal path?

Yes, Tapping the signal off in this way has no effect on the mixer functionality.

vibrations1951, post: 440578, member: 34341 wrote:
3. So in the latter case utilizing the DOC106 arrangement, because my Aurora is routed to and from the board out to a normalized TRS patchbay via Db25 to TRS, would I need to change this cabling as well?

If you use either the DOC106 adaptors or your own wired version followed by TS or TRS cabling, it should work correctly, but bear in mind that the feeds arriving at the patchbay will be unbalanced. These will pass through a balanced patchbay without problem. You just have to be sure that the signal -ve comes in as ground and is not floating. The DOC106 adaptors should ensure that, but I am slightly worried by their diagram that shows a TS socket on the cable and not a TRS with the ring grounded. If you are going to use the DOC106s, I would suggest using TS cabling to the patchbay, as the TRS input jacks there guarantee grounding on the ring contact when a TS plug is inserted. I've never used the DOC106s; I've always wired my own, so have never hit any problems.

vibrations1951, post: 440575, member: 34341 wrote: I love the flexibility of utilizing what little outboard gear I have in many different configurations in the analog pass.

vibrations1951, post: 440575, member: 34341 wrote: not that I have a great deal of experience or knowledge now, but I'm loving it so far!

That's the point of all of this right!??

vibrations1951, post: 440575, member: 34341 wrote: OPTIONS! Even though it can get challenging with patching for me, I love the options and making the most of what gear I have. I think the Folcrom increases these options/flexibility. I'm not stuck with the particular "sound of 1 board". It's like having the choice of a Neve, SSL, etc., based on the colours amd charcteristics of your pres.

Bingo. That point sold it for me. That really makes sense to me and hits home. Also your point about getting as much use out of your analog gear as possible also makes sense. Particularly pre amps, which aren't useful usually other than tracking. Not that this is an excuse to buy a bunch of pres now or anything... ;)

Thanks for your thoughts. You've just sealed the deal on my braino on this. Plus your point about 'forgetting its there most of the time' is also a plus to me. To me, It means the engineer has a ton of control over color and or clarity.

Awesomeness!!

vibrations1951, post: 440575, member: 34341 wrote: By the way, what interfaces did you go with?

I decided on the RME babyface pro, which just came out a few months ago, for my primary tracking/monitoring adda, and a focusrite scarelett 18i20, which also just came out a couple months ago. The scarelett has 8 pres and 10 analog outs. The pres run in standalone just like an outboard pre would as well. I'll feed the summing box w the analog outs of the scarlet into the RME. My computers are all the latest generation chipsets from early 2016, so everything is on the same part of the tech wave. This is a first for me. Super excited to get everything out of the boxes and the interfaces ordered.

Last time my monitors literally came out as I was returning the demo units so couldn't be newer, but my interface and software were basically obsolete/not written properly yet. My (150$) external hard drive was ATA when sata had just come out.

I'll likely fell the pain when everything becomes obselete at once. But I'm planning on the obsolescence this time 3-5years. Set and forget this time, minimal upgrades and add ins. Those seem to wreak havoc on computer systems that are otherwise working well.

Which just got me thinking about your system, maybe if nuendo 4 ain't broke.... I know you'd talked about upgrading. Maybe you dont/ won't need too.

Fwiw his zed is sounding pretty freakin cool still!! Looking like maybe you've got a winner?

Excellent. Thank you.

Boswell, post: 440579, member: 29034 wrote: be sure that the signal -ve comes in as ground and is not floating.

So does this mean that if I want to continue using the balanced snake to the Aurora inputs analog, I would build my jack cables in place of the DOC106s as follows?

Male TRS Tip and Ring together (+ according to the DOC106s diagram) to the Female TRS socket Tip terminal (short center post).
Then the GND from the male TRS Shield to the Ring and Shield of the Female TRS socket.

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: That's the point of all of this right!??

I sure think so!!

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: Bingo. That point sold it for me. That really makes sense to me and hits home. Also your point about getting as much use out of your analog gear as possible also makes sense. Particularly pre amps, which aren't useful usually other than tracking. Not that this is an excuse to buy a bunch of pres now or anything... ;)

Hell, why not!!

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: so everything is on the same part of the tech wave.

In a sense, that would kinda be it for me if I integrate the ZED now...no upgrading needed for my DAW or anything else right now.

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: I'll likely fell the pain when everything becomes obselete at once.

This is a part of the whole digital thing I can't seem to get used to!

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: Looking like maybe you've got a winner?

Sure is looking that way more by the minute....

kmetal, post: 440583, member: 37533 wrote: Super excited to get everything out of the boxes and the interfaces ordered.

I imagine! I very pumped for you. From what I can see, you've given this a ton of thought and research and I'll bet it will really pay off in the end. I really respect your process and values, not to mention your support to me and others here!
Let's be sure to keep each other posted.
Later

vibrations1951, post: 440587, member: 34341 wrote: So does this mean that if I want to continue using the balanced snake to the Aurora inputs analog, I would build my jack cables in place of the DOC106s as follows?

Male TRS Tip and Ring together (+ according to the DOC106s diagram) to the Female TRS socket Tip terminal (short center post).
Then the GND from the male TRS Shield to the Ring and Shield of the Female TRS socket.

Yes, exactly.

Boswell, post: 440592, member: 29034 wrote: Yes, exactly.

Perfect.
Thanks so much Bos.

I'm so excited I just had to post. I've been laying out my workflow and cabling diagrams and if I've got it right, it's looking like this is all going to work out really well for me!

Connecters on the way for cabling inserts and I just pulled the trigger on a new A&H Zed R16! Comes with 2 AT4040's, shockmounts and cables, which I may sell to recoup some costs.

Looking at my schedule, it may take me a couple of months before I get it all patched together but when I do, I'll be sure to update with details.

Again, thanks Boswell,kmetal DonnyThompson dvdhawk and @Sean G for all your valuable input and help walking me through yet another stage of my understanding and growth!

I'm excited for you man, I'll look forward to your report.