Ok, I'm gonna muddy the water around here. I want to know what everybody thinks about dig recording, Pro Tools in particular.
I want to like it, I really do. But I had a session recently where the project was all 24 trk 2". We decided to load one tune into ProStools for some serious editing. After a day and a half, I think we got something better, but when I started to mix, about 2 hours into it, I turned around and said, "What the f**k happened to the sound?" The assistant, who also did the editing said, "Pro Tools!"
Comments?
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> No it's not, you just don't know how to use it. If you are mi
>
No it's not, you just don't know how to use it. If you are mixing externally via PT's direct outs you need to leave the faders at unity because PT truncates it's outputs. Therefore as you lower a fader you effectively lower the resolution and increase the severity of quantisation errors. None of this has any relevance if you are mixing internally, as the fader outputs are passed to the mix bus without truncation.
Greg
All this talk of audio quality is cool but here is what I see as
All this talk of audio quality is cool but here is what I see as the real situation: For producers and artists, ProTools (or any other DAW) can be an invaluable production tool. For a mixing engineer the main problems in day to day use is the lack of neatness and completeness of the tracking session. That is to say that a typical ProTools session goes to the mixer looking like a ridiculous puzzle.
There should be a standard delivery format for ProTools files. For example, all tracks could be rendered, or consolidated into a single audio file that starts at the top of the session. As an engineer or producer I worry that any tracks that contain regions may accidentally get nudged and the mixer would never know what is right or wrong. There should be noplug-insinserted on a mix session and all track outputs assignments should be clearly labeled in the note area. All faders should be set to 0. As a mixer I ask for these setups from my clients and tell them that setup time is expensive when I have to spend 2 hours laying out their session for a mix. Also, I have been trying to develop a tracksheet layout for PT, but it is a tricky thing. The options are so extreme that a track sheet is not a simple matter. Any suggestions?
This labaling up is a PITA but has to be done.. Doing it today
This labaling up is a PITA but has to be done..
Doing it today as it happens..
I will hand over one session where you can press play and a rough mix comes out...
And one where it's all coming out indavidualy...
What will a guy do with a 40 track PT session on a Sony DMX100 desk I wonder....???
If there's something you don't like about protools(and we are ta
If there's something you don't like about protools(and we are talking JUST about that paticular DAW right?), you should identify it more specifically. "It sounds like shit" sounds more like a whine than constructive critisism. If you're missing low end, add low end. If you hear a bump somewhere, knotch it out. It took me a little while to get used to protools exclusively. Also, please keep in mind that you'll lose energy in ANY transfer (a/d, a/d, etc.) Other than that, just mak sure you have all your bases covered- solid clock, good calibrated 888's, etc... If you still don't like it, go ahead and spend 30 days doing something in analog it takes me 20 minutes to do in protools. And don't get me started on recalls.
Organization is critical to doing efficient, intuitive work. On
Organization is critical to doing efficient, intuitive work.
One of the greatest potential benefits of the new AES-31 standard is that it will make creating high-end dedicated mixing, editing and tracking applications practical.
Meanwhile we have to document which blade of our Swiss Army Knife was used.
Originally posted by e-cue: If there's something you don't like
Originally posted by e-cue:
If there's something you don't like about protools(and we are talking JUST about that paticular DAW right?), you should identify it more specifically. "It sounds like shit" sounds more like a whine than constructive critisism.
How about it lacks depth. Sorry, there's no depth button on my EQ.
If you're missing low end, add low end. If you hear a bump somewhere, knotch it out. It took me a little while to get used to protools exclusively. Also, please keep in mind that you'll lose energy in ANY transfer (a/d, a/d, etc.) Other than that, just mak sure you have all your bases covered- solid clock, good calibrated 888's, etc... If you still don't like it, go ahead and spend 30 days doing something in analog it takes me 20 minutes to do in protools. And don't get me started on recalls.
Go ahead spend 3 months making an album it'll only takes 2 weeks to do on 2". And go ahead on recalls. I do them all the time.
Mixerman
Pro Tools NEWSFLASH FUCK WAITING FOR NEW HARDWARE OR NEW CARDS
Pro Tools NEWSFLASH
FUCK WAITING FOR NEW HARDWARE OR NEW CARDS TO GET IMPROVED PT SOUND!!!!!
Sony EQ plug ins for PT - Developed by the SonyOxford team (not to be confused with the the Japanese Sony toy desk team) REVITALIZE PT !!!!!!
******************
My review....
WAHHHHHH HOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Fukin AMAZING !
First mix done with em, I was running about 25 of them...
Qualities:
"Direct" - there aint no bogus 'veil' accross it, this ain't no 'this-will-have-to-do' sound..
"Big" - big sound, great mid control - WITH BALLS -we are talking 'improvement" not 'sound destroying' boost.
"GML like' - surgical but smooth at the same time
"screw the graphic man, I am fucking HEARING it"!
"top end finaly useable" - man oh man, super slick, but jumping out at you.
Vital step for the PT comunity, a Sony compressor will complete the package.
:)
Wow...what a thread! For my part, I'll have to agree with McSna
Wow...what a thread!
For my part, I'll have to agree with McSnare and Mixerman.
To put things in perspective, PT is the multitrack that I have been using the most because it is what my clients are using. I was one of the first three purchasers of a PT MixPlus system in Europe back when it came out in November 1998.
My own studio is based on a combination of PT and Apogee AD8000 converters synchronized to Studer A820 and MCI JH24 2" 24-track machines. Mixdown machines are an ATR102 1/2" and a Masterlink with a PSX100SE front end.
Now, I've used PT with 888/24s, with Apogee AD8000s and PSX100SEs, and with the new Genex GXA8 and GXD8 converters. I've used a number of different clock sources. I've mixed a number of albums all in the box, to see how good I could get it. And yes, I've found it sounds better to run PT tracks out individually at unity gain without plugins to an analog desk.
These things all help, but to my ears PT still does not have the depth of 2" tape.
Of course, you can track to 2" first -- and I try to get producers and artists to do that when possible -- but depth is still lost in the A/D transfer to PT.
The platform that I would be very interested to hear is the Rader 24, as EVERYONE seems to be raving about it.
Who has a Rader 24 experience to share? Please step up and let us hear from you.
Jon
Originally posted by Mixerman: As far as I'm concerned, the
Originally posted by Mixerman:
As far as I'm concerned, the biggest flaw with pro tools is the math. Move a fader, and your audio is irreparably damaged. It baffles me why people would buy a system that will be obsolete in 3 years, sounds like shit, and costs more than a quality analog machine that is, well, proven to sound good.
Mixerman
This is why we went with Fairlight.
Mark
well, first of all pardon my bad english... i manage a small re
well, first of all pardon my bad english...
i manage a small recording studio in italy, i work with PT 5.1.1, 888/24, 882/20, mix internally of PT using some analog outboard...
i heard 'round this discussion that PT is near shit in front of analog tape and consoles.
Ok, i suppose so it is (many reputable engeneers round here are saying that).
Anyway, i have this system and have to work with it, so, any advice to improve my system?
(no money to buy 2 expensive AD8000)
what about changing my Digi hardware with other ADDA converters? which converters? better to buy a good word clock master? which models?
please advice, i'm just trying to improve my actual system at best.
Originally posted by yuppie: Anyway, i have this system and h
Originally posted by yuppie:
Anyway, i have this system and have to work with it, so, any advice to improve my system?
(no money to buy 2 expensive AD8000)
what about changing my Digi hardware with other ADDA converters? which converters? better to buy a good word clock master? which models?
please advice, i'm just trying to improve my actual system at best.
The first thing to do is buy a high quality mastrclock, that would be number one in my book. I've heard good things about the Aardsync.
Mark
Originally posted by Jon Atack: Wow...what a thread! Of course
Originally posted by Jon Atack:
Wow...what a thread!
Of course, you can track to 2" first -- and I try to get producers and artists to do that when possible -- but depth is still lost in the A/D transfer to PT.
The platform that I would be very interested to hear is the Rader 24, as EVERYONE seems to be raving about it.
Who has a Rader 24 experience to share? Please step up and let us hear from you.
Jon
I have transferred from two inch to Radar and MX2424 a couple of times and the same happened, quite some loss of depth and width.
And the high end is less 'silky' IMO.
Because my console is wired for two 24 track machines it was easy to A/B the sounds.
E-cue, No one is claiming that we can't put out hits after the
E-cue,
No one is claiming that we can't put out hits after the audio passes through ProTools -- otherwise, all the sessions I'm seeing nowadays would be in trouble.
Han,
Thanks for your Radar experience. Which converters were in the Radar you used?
Any other Radar24 experiences? Does it really sound as good as many (who have probably never used it) are saying? I've even heard that Radar 24 sounds close to analog 2", which is pretty tough to believe.
Who's got the real skinny on this? Come forth with the truth, ye Radar24-experienced rogues...
Jon
Originally posted by Jon Atack: E-cue, No one is claiming that
Originally posted by Jon Atack:
E-cue,
No one is claiming that we can't put out hits after the audio passes through ProTools -- otherwise, all the sessions I'm seeing nowadays would be in trouble.
Han,
Thanks for your Radar experience. Which converters were in the Radar you used?
Any other Radar24 experiences? Does it really sound as good as many (who have probably never used it) are saying? I've even heard that Radar 24 sounds close to analog 2", which is pretty tough to believe.
Who's got the real skinny on this? Come forth with the truth, ye Radar24-experienced rogues...
Jon
That'd be me. I think the Radar24 sounds amazing. I've been using it as a front end for Alsihad, and I've been transferring sessions from Alsihad to the Radar24 for mix sessions.
I've never heard a digital systemn that sounds as good as this, and it operates like a tape player, that's the bonus.
MIxerman
Right then, it must be a code word for Pro Stools... PT is
Right then, it must be a code word for Pro Stools...
PT is shorter and easier to type, so I will stick with it. And though McSnare and Ang and I may criticize PT, I don't believe Digi is looking to sue forum moderators just yet (spoken to the sound of a 24-bit fixed-point chest-beating sample) :p
How about more Radar24 experiences? And which converters (standard, Nyquist, etc.) are you all using with Radar24 ?
I believe Rob Darling reported a few weeks back on Ed C.'s forum (RIP...) that he found Radar24 to be a bit clearer-sounding :eek: than his PT+ApogeeSE rig.
Rob, what's your take now? I'll try to dig up the original quote.
Jon
Huh? What you sniffin Jon? Or what am I sniffin? Cuz I comple
Huh?
What you sniffin Jon? Or what am I sniffin? Cuz I completely missed something there... :confused:
Anyway, yes it's no secret that I am engaged in a long-term love/hate relationship with digi-d products. I was dragged kicking and screaming many years ago onto the "de-facto standard", and while it has taken away as many years of my life as it has added, it is the platform on which I currently make a living.
Can't complain. On the other hand, yes I can, and should, for the good of the hive. Know what I mean?
Anyone who cares to disagree with that notion, email is free.
angcin@bellatlantic.net
I haven't used RADAR in several years mainly because because I j
I haven't used RADAR in several years mainly because because I just consider it more of a digital tape machine (I know it does more...). The last time I used it, it took FOREVER to restore projects, which hopefully they fixed in the revisions. How long does it typically take to restore a 48 track session now a days?
Listening back to a compilation I made of stuff done at my studi
Listening back to a compilation I made of stuff done at my studio, one common thread runs through all the work (almost all Pro Tools) If the drummer was great, so is the recording.. If he was not so hot, the recording is not so hot..
Aint that the same with analog?
Perhaps it's that PT caves in quicker, needs that foundation right at the start or it's ALL fucked....
If that makes me concentrate more on the core backing track sounds in future, well... its a good thing....
I reckon mixing stuff to sound cool on PT is like a horse ride through a mountain pass on a horse with a bottle of Nitro Glycerine in each saddle bag!
You could say it was very stupid or very brave!
(Shhhhhhhh!) Thank you! Me and Trigger will be through here in a second....