Well, there's a school of thought that says quality costs. I generally agree with that but I also think decent gear doesn't have to cost a bloody fortune. I've never used any of the Rode mics, but have a number of the Studio Projects mics and think they're a great value. I've also got a Brauner mic that was considerably more expensive than the SP mics and it's just wonderful. Is the Brauner worth ten times the C1? Well, I suppose that's a matter of opinion. I love both mics for different things. Though I've never owned a Neumann, I have recorded with a U87 in a past band life. It certainly had a sound all its own and sounded quite good for our singer's vocals. That was 8 years ago and they were fairly pricey mics then. From what I've seen, it's generally agreed throughout most of the pro audio community that Neumann's are quality mics and worth their selling price - or at least were before they raised their prices. I'm not sure what a preamp has to cost to be considered "boutique" but I love my Great River MP-2NV.

Anyway, my point isn't to pick on Neumann or cast aspersions on high priced pre's. I wouldn't mind having an '87 or two and perhaps one of their nicer tube mics someday. And I'd definitely love to have another Great River. I guess the point is that fair value is in the eye (or rather ear) of the beholder. I'm not a big fan of PT myself, but it has more to do with the work flow and sound of that system. In general, I prefer working with a console and outboard and tend not to like DAW's much. Again, it's a mileage thing.

Now, FedEx is really pissing me off lately and I won't be doing any more business with them any time soon. To me, that's a service that is over priced - especially when they lose packages and damage gear.

I want to add another one to the 'unfair value list': Waves plugings. Is it necessary to charge such big amount of money for computer plug ins? I'd love to have the gold bundles and I'll be saving my pennies and probaly eventually get it- but is it fair? I'd love to hear a 'fair' explanation on the subject.

I think that the pricing for Waves plugins is actually more fair than most. They appear to be expensive, but when you consider that you get 20 plugins with the Gold Bundle, and they average about $50 apiece...how can that be considered an "unfair" amount? Even thought I don't use them all, I get regular use out of the Renaissance EQ and compressor, L1, the de-esser, C4 multiband, Q10, and I use PAZ with some frequency. Even if I only used those eight plugins, that's still only $125 per plugin. And I do use the others on occasion as well...what better way to waste an hour or two late at night than by running various sounds through various presets in Enigma? Other than posting to forums at least...

While we are at it, lets add Neumann mics to the list. Is their exorbitant prices fair value. Please chime in, oh you knowkleageable capitalist gods!

Are their prices really "exhorbitant"? They're built by hand in Germany...I think they're priced fairly, since people buy them. If you want that sound, that's what you have to buy. Not to say you can't get microphones that will sound as good on certain sources for less...you can...but if you want that sound, you have to spend that money.

What about boutique preamps- are they fair value- please chime in, boutique preamps gurus out there.

I don't think I'm a "boutique guru", but again, the stuff that's not priced fairly doesn't sell and either drops in price or disappears altogether. I don't have any "boutique" preamps, but I do have a few Focusrite ISA preamps, which aren't cheap...and I don't think my $1500 ISA220 sounds three times as good as a good $500 preamp. I do, however, think it sounds better in most cases, and to get that small improvement in quality I realize I have to spend a disproportionately larger amount of money to get it. Since most of the "boutique" stuff is made by hand by guys who probably have more love for music than they do business sense, I think most of them are fairly priced. If they're not, people don't buy them.

Please list product that you think are not fair value and why, (like we're being ripped off, man), and products that you think are great deals, extreme fair value and why.

I think most Behringer stuff is still overpriced for what it is. As far as products that I think are great deals...the Kurzweil Rumour comes to mind as one. A great-sounding stereo reverb that I think sounds as good as or better than many reverbs that cost several times what it does. I think that Royer's ribbon microphones are a great value as well...it's pretty clear that they've been the catalyst to get a few other relatively inexpensive ribbons to the market, and you'd have to pry away my cold dead fingers to get mine away from me. I also think that the iFet7 is a phenomenal value for the money, although it's not cheap by any stretch. The Distressor is another not-inexpensive product that offers both quality and versatility at a price that is very reasonable.

Oh, and now that the Masterlink has dropped to about $800 I'd have to put it in that category as well.

-Duardo

How about the Telefunken reissues...
16K for a microphone !!??

Ouch..
"-)

1) I find the Digidesing MBox lists at a very fair price. Not even fair, it was the lowest price alternative on the market when I bought it. (This is not an ad, see below):
- two decent pres with 48V phantom (do test and measure the voltage on low price equipment with a mic connected)
- 24 bit / 44.1 kHz decent converters with low noise
- decent headphone volume
- not needing external power module (use with my laptop)
- high quality, stable, supported software

My next alternative here was more expensive (not counting the Edirol stuff that I could not even get to work on my PC).

I have used it and liked it and is now moving on to other things. I have never been letdown by Digidesign - they tell you exactly what you pay for and you get exactly that.

2) I go to my local specialist shop and pay a lot of money for my Parmesan cheese and my Parma ham. A lot more than low priced alternatives, but I still find that they are good value for the money.

3) I bought two Neumann KM184 used and paid good money for them. I could probably sell them on for the same price. I am very happy with them, and is actually considering getting a pair of KM183.

4) My daytime work is in an insurance company. We support 7.000 PC-s in about 50 different locations. We pay a lot of money for the software that allows us to remotely update and test the machines. It is worth it´s money several times around (as controller I´ve done the calculations).

5) I used to own a Studio Projects B1. No complaints about it, but I´ve sold it without regrets.

Now, most of these things have very little to do with the original question, but what is good value to me is about what you want to use it for.

And I have learnt one lesson over the years, good value in my experiences comes only in two different shapes:
- the really good stuff that you really should have and which you will love every time you use it.
- the low price stuff that you are willing to throw away (or if possible sell anytime) but does an adequate job in the meantime.

This goes for shoes (I have a pair of Johnston & Murphy shoes that I have used regularerly since 1990) and most other things.

Gunnar Hellquist

Maintiger wrote: While we are at it, lets add Neumann mics to the list. Is their exorbitant prices fair value. Please chime in, oh you knowledgeable capitalist gods!

What about boutique preamps- are they fair value- please chime in, boutique preamps gurus out there.

I agree with Duardo on this, in the case of Neumann and Boutique pres, yes they are pricey ... but as pointed out they are hand built by very skilled people who live in industrially developed countries ... They will last forever if taken care of and they re sell for quite a bit of their original cost. The trick with these things is to look for the best price when purchasing ... If purchased skillfully, these things can even be a good investment.

Software on the other hand is volatile. It's value will usually evaporate over a very short time .. especially if a company continually re invents it in order to keep the customer returning with their pocket books wide open. This kind of practice is what I take issue with.

There is a fine line whether a company is exploitive or if they are only continuing development (a good thing IMO) and pushing the technology. I don't wish to stifle R&D, or remove the impetus for creating new products but I personally think all companies should govern themselves to behave in a publicly responsible manner and do the best they can to provide a reasonable value for what they sell instead of squeezing the public for the maximum profit. This should be expected of them if they want to do business with us, the public. The problem lies within public apathy and complacency IMO .. if consumers wouldn't stand for these kinds of practices, companies would not be able to continue them. We can all vote with our pocket books .. and this is why I am such a loud mouth on the subject.

I don't think you can call high prices exploitive if you're selling preamps and microphones. If you're consider things like staple foods and health care exploitive might be applicable.

If the manufacturers know they have a good product, why shouldn't they sell it at the highest price the market will bear? If they drop the price the volume goes up and they cannot maintain their quality at the higher volumes.

Supply and demand at work.

[edit] btw - I don't own any of this stuff - I can't afford it. :cry: [/edit]

zemlin wrote: If the manufacturers know they have a good product, why shouldn't they sell it at the highest price the market will bear? If they drop the price the volume goes up and they cannot maintain their quality at the higher volumes.
[edit] btw - I don't own any of this stuff - I can't afford it. :cry: [/edit]

We are just talking about fair value here, in this case a quality product at a fair price. We are more in the realm of ethics here, not unbriddled capitalism or plain out greed. I don't know if for example, prices for Neumann mics are a reflection of fair value or the price is set simply because they can get it- in other words, not fair value all the market would bear. Someone mentioned Ferraris in another thread as an example of greed vs fair value. They charge those prices because some idiots will buy it- but I don't know the fair marfet value of a ferrari so I can't say for sure.

In the old days, before daws brough decent recording capabilities to the rest of us, Neumann mics and other high end recording tools were the domain of commercial recording studios. When you have a budget from say, a record company for a high profile of course you can afford to buy whatever is available. I don't have a problem with that.

I think there is a question of ethics now because recording has become an art that is available to the rest of us, whether we have a budget or not, and the high end gear company has recognized there is a large potential market out there for their products, and we will mortgage our lives to attain it. So we are being marketed, all of us, with ads in the recording magazines, with the music megastores, with forums such as these. There is a growing number of people involved with recording as an art form, as a means of expression and these are the people that unfair market value exploits.

Manufactures know that the artsy recordist witout a commercial budget can not possibly shell out $1,000,000 for a recording console when there no hope of recouping the investment. But they know that the same recordist will lust after a Neumann and likelygo deep into debt to buy the stuff. Mind you, again I repeat, we are in a province of ethics here. And again I would like to know, from our knowlegeable proffesional users out there, what products are fair value for the money and what products are pure hype and rip off.

Gonna chime in here - but not specifically about the subject - more in general.

Anything is a fair price (by the very concept of capitalism) if it fits within the "what the market will bear" saying.

Are blue jeans worth 150 bucks a pair? They are if enough people are buying them to support the manufacturer and return a profit.

Otherwise they would not be charging that much.

Kurt,

I don't believe that PT deliberately develope new software to strip people of their money.

I have 2 brothers who are computer scientists - and both of them tell me the same stories over and over.

They develope a product - a damed good one - and Joe comes along and wants something "tweaked" - so they tweak away and suddenly the only way they can add any more tweaks (or perks - or updates ) is to update the product.

Now you have to understand the thousands and THOUSANDS of man hours that go into a computer related product.......

If the company could sell the product without ever making a change and get everyone to buy it - they wouldn't ever have to upgrade -

But we live in a world where everyone wants the newest - the fastest - the best......

Will my software work perfectly with that new hardware that just came out - hell I designed it for a 2.33 Ghz machine and now they have 3.60 GHz........... will any software bugs creep in that i didn't know about before now - and what do i have to do to fix them? It just goes on and on......... and if you can't run on the newest - the fastest - the best - you are out of business.

This isn't like analog gear - even the newest state of the art computers are dirt cheap in a couple of months because of the rapid speed that the technology progresses - so it's easy for businesses and individuals to keep upgrading as it goes on.

Guys - it all boils down to the market place.

If everyone was a pissed as Kurt over this - PT would go out of business......... wouldn't take long either.........

But then again - if everyone stopped buying 150 dollar jeans - they wouldn't exist..................

Rod

Rod Gervais wrote: Anything is a fair price (by the very concept of capitalism) if it fits within the "what the market will bear" saying.
Rod

If someone like Rod Gervais who I respect an a sensible human being doesn't get it, I guess I am whispering in the wind, so to speak. The ethical concept of fair value, a quality product at a fair price no longer exists. Here is dog eat dog in a world and exploit your neighbor if you can- get it when you can get it and get as much as you can.

I wanted to start a discussion at a different level but I guess we are too conditioned by madison avenue to even broach the subject.
We are lambs led to a happy slaughter or better still, fleeced and put back on the street to grow more hair, so to speak, so we can be fleeced again. So much for art for art's sake-

But yet, I know by your posts that a large percentage of RO's members do not make a living doing your music, but rather you do it because you love it- How can you be happy about being exploited? Kurt is taking on Pro Tools in another thread and he is mecilessly attacked- Can nobody see that he is basically right about what he is saying? What we are being marketed to because we love recording music and we are being exploited because of our love of art? I am not talking about the pros making a living but about all the rest of us... the ones that do it because we love it and that is all there is to it- Wow, this is heavy- lay on your back and let them pick the wallet out of your pockets, people!
and if someone points out a few simple truths, just discredit them as nuts. (or call them flip flops, the model is out there for all to follow) :mrgreen:

Consider all the posts / comments here at RO over the past few months asking if 96k is even necessary ... this indicates to me that the market is not ready to move to 96k let alone 192k but still the converter and software manufacturers insist in moving in that direction ... and you can bet the farm that DSD or something else will come along as soon as sales of 192k devices have saturated the market. These manufacturers cannot continue to exsist providing only service for their products. For them, the next "biggest and best thing" is a case of survival. Consumers suck this sh*t up like a crack freak on a pipe.

Manufacturers know what they want to sell quite a while in advance of introducing it to the market. In many cases they play a game of "shape" ... that is, knowing what the next few moves are going to be ... like a top player would in chess or pool. I don't think it is unreasonable to wonder if when 96k was cutting edge, perhaps a move directly to 192k might have been possible? I can't say this is the case, but I do wonder about it.

IMO, there is far too much "milking" of the consumer going on ... and most of it happens because as was pointed out in the PT thread everyone is suffering with a bad case of "keeping up with the Jones's" ... and it is absolutely a fact that this is a marketing technique that has been exploited by marketing executives for decades..

I guess the day of reckoning will come (and its coming!) when the Studio projects of the world reach 'Neumann' quality at a budget prices. We have made great strides in that arena with lots of quality products coming out at reasonable prices. I know there is also a lotta crap out there but hopefully it will be weeded out by the quality offerings. Who would have dreamed in say, 1988, of a mic like the C1 or the NT1 costing $200? We are making progress. Exploiters beware! The Neumann killers are already out there- they just need to get a wee bit better-

maintiger wrote: How can you be happy about being exploited?

Protools doesn't have any of my money. Neither does Neumann. Granted, a lot of folks would thumb their noses at my kit. At this point I'm probably still the weakest link.

In any case, I'm having fun, earning a little money to spend on more recording gear, and my clients are happy with their recordings.

What's wrong with that picture?

zemlin wrote: [quote=maintiger]How can you be happy about being exploited?

Protools doesn't have any of my money. Neither does Neumann. Granted, a lot of folks would thumb their noses at my kit. At this point I'm probably still the weakest link.

In any case, I'm having fun, earning a little money to spend on more recording gear, and my clients are happy with their recordings.

What's wrong with that picture?

right on (y)

The ethical concept of fair value, a quality product at a fair price no longer exists. Here is dog eat dog in a world and exploit your neighbor if you can- get it when you can get it and get as much as you can.

So how to determine what a "fair value" is? Figure out the cost of all the parts, all the labor, overhead, R&D, and then figure that anything over a certain percentage above those costs is "unfair"?

How can you be happy about being exploited? Kurt is taking on Pro Tools in another thread and he is mecilessly attacked- Can nobody see that he is basically right about what he is saying? What we are being marketed to because we love recording music and we are being exploited because of our love of art? I am not talking about the pros making a living but about all the rest of us... the ones that do it because we love it and that is all there is to it- Wow, this is heavy- lay on your back and let them pick the wallet out of your pockets, people!

First off, I don't think that he's being mercilessly attacked. Sure, there's some disagreement (and I disagree that he's 'basically right'...a lot if this isn't a black-or-white/right-or-wrong issue), but especially those of us that aren't doing this for a living aren't necessarily being exploited. I know I give serious consideration to every purchase I make and don't feel like I'm being exploited at all. If someone who's doing this for the love of art rather than for a living (not that the two are mutually exclusive) choosed to jump on every paid upgrade, are they being exploited? They certainly don't have to lie down and let "them" reach into their pockets.

Consider all the posts / comments here at RO over the past few months asking if 96k is even necessary ... this indicates to me that the market is not ready to move to 96k let alone 192k but still the converter and software manufacturers insist in moving in that direction ... and you can bet the farm that DSD or something else will come along as soon as sales of 192k devices have saturated the market. These manufacturers cannot continue to exsist providing only service for their products. For them, the next "biggest and best thing" is a case of survival. Consumers suck this sh*t up like a crack freak on a pipe.

I have a lot of respect for manufacturers like Apogee who have come out and said that they're only doing higher sampling rates because the market demands it, and that their converters sound as good at lower rates as they do at the higher rates. It's pretty clear to me that we still haven't gotten everything out of 44.1kHz that we can yet. I actually have a lot of respect for Digidesign in this respect as well...they were one of the last to come to the market with 96kHz capability, again because they were waiting until the market absolutely demanded it. I think a lot of this is consumer-driven...people that go to Best Buy and pick up their $150 DVD players want to be able to put in a DVD and have the "96kHz" light light up. If it doesn't, then the stuff they're listening to must not be "professional quality", right? Regardless of the fact that it's mostly synth-based music with about fifteen decibels of dynamic range and no real information above 15kHz...

I don't think it is unreasonable to wonder if when 96k was cutting edge, perhaps a move directly to 192k might have been possible? I can't say this is the case, but I do wonder about it.

It may have been possible, but even now it's really unnecessary...and it's not very practical either. It severely limits track count, and even the final delivery format (DVD Audio) only supports two channels. I think your average consumer would be much more impressed with sound coming out of all five of his speakers (which roll off around 18kHz) than listening to a 192kHz recording through two of them.

-Duardo

I guess I see things in a similar vein to Rod (hardly the first time). I don't put the "Dr Evil" spin on Digi. Is it unfairly valued? Are they overpriced? To an extent - yes - I would rather pay less (who wouldn't?) Will they reach a point of diminishing returns? probably... when, where and how remains to be seen- The fair market is not an immediate market. Never has been, never will. If you don't think so I could probably pick up a few shares of TICO or Enron or any other 90's dot com company... for you.

I didn't buy PT because of Madison ave hype or any other marketing strategy. I saw it in action on a singing gig I was hired to do. (Using Neumann mics no less :D ) I was impressed with the studio running it- its format and layout, and speed of editing of the type of music I was doing. It had a learning curve, but nowhere near Finale or any of the notation/sequencer things out there that I've struggle through. I paid for it and have been pleased with the purchase. The bottom line was, if I spent the money to get into PT I was confident that I could take my rough stuff to this studio and get excellent results. I can't say that about any other software.
The engineer could pull up my files directly and fix them track by track and I could learn while he did it. To me that's an added value that makes up for the "unfair" price. I'm not paying for a full studio @ $50-100/hr for everything - THAT $ adds up and absolutely needs to be considered in the equation- I have not read any one else mention this fact.

Fair is extremely subjective and so is value.

Another point, what company would you rather have control over a larger market share - DIGI or Behringer? B*** certainly is inexpensively priced - It works, it tends to hold up fairly well.
However, I think the questionable labor practices, inferior products, reverse engineered aspects of a company are far more insidious than an agressive marketing strategy that admittedly makes large profits for a company that (at least) has an active R and D. The fact that B**** even uses an implied German name bothers me as well.

You choose your battles, in the overall scheme of things "fair value" means different things to different people and different things to different companies.
Tiger, maybe I am apathetic towards wall street - and I'm far more willing to roll over because I don't have the time and energy it would take to make that kind of campaign successful. I'm also not sure it could be successful. Is Kurt right about DIGI? Possibly yes- in his defense, to this date,no one has successfully answered why their stuff (or Waves, or....) is more expensive than similiar items for the physical product. Is Kurt right about B***? Possibly yes- but no one has any documentation of slave labor type conditions-though the reverse engineering and name are obvious.
But as Rod said, with software, none of us know all the time and energy that has gone into R&D and compatibility. We don't have their books to confirm it, we can only speculate. Which is what that whole PT thread is about.

Are there good values - you bet: AKG, Studio Projects, Rode mics Mackie mixers, Yamaha MP5, Sebatron pre
But...

My final bottom line - best value in the recording industry - Recording.org
Hands down. Thanks Chris :!:

The dialogue, information, passion, expertise and ability to disagree in a civilized fashion (like this) is.....priceless.

Phil

_____
RO Vocal Booth Moderator

I was bringing up the subject from a view point that I see hardly anybody in our society sees anymore: a good product at a 'fair' price. obviously dog eat dog and maximizing profits is the god here and nobody minds. A 'fair price' used to be an issue that I guess went out of favor somewhere in the mid 20th century- so why should I nor anybody care?

So with that being said, lets be thankfull to Mackie, motu, and the other companies who are providing 'fair value.' Of course they are not doing it out of the goodness of therir hearts but rather in an effort to gain market share. By the way, my esteemed co -moderator, Mr. O, I don't have an opinion on the protools debate as I don't own it and have never been atracted to it. I respect Kurts pasionate stand as a fight for the underdog but I have not researched any facts on PT to have an informed opinion of my own.

By the way, I don't buy ferrari automobile or designer jeans either- and I don't know why anybody wants to go to starbucs and pay $4 for a cup of coffeee. But that's the way I was brought up- when I was a child in Cuba we not only did not have 'disposable income' but also there was nothing to spend it on anyway.
we had a rationing card which allowed you to buy a pound of meat, a chicken and a gallon a milk per week per family, among other things. Later on when milk became more scarce it was limited to children under 3 and old people over 65- so maybe am an anacronism here.
- my kids don't see anything wrong with a $4 starbuck cup of coffee, so if I can't even get them to see my point I m just dreaming that the good people in this great forum could even fanthom where i was coming from.

Hey, lets just get back to making music. I am right now mixing a real cool production- great songs, great sound. And yes, some of the songs were tracked with an U87, some with an RCa D77, through grace and sytek preamps and apogee AD conversion- so i do know that great gear can cost a dear penny. But some other of the songs were tracked with the new K2 rode mic, which at $600 is not a fair value, is a super great value! What can I say, life does go on!

Duardo wrote: I have a lot of respect for manufacturers like Apogee who have come out and said that they're only doing higher sampling rates because the market demands it, and that their converters sound as good at lower rates as they do at the higher rates. ........

I think a lot of this is consumer-driven...people that go to Best Buy and pick up their $150 DVD players want to be able to put in a DVD and have the "96kHz" light light up. If it doesn't, then the stuff they're listening to must not be "professional quality", right? Regardless of the fact that it's mostly synth-based music with about fifteen decibels of dynamic range and no real information above 15kHz...

So do I Duardo .. in fact I like Apogee about as much as anyone could like a company. They make a great product that works very well and is built like a tank .. and I agree that it is feasbale that companies like Apogee become victim of the "upgrade maddness", as much or perhaps even more that the average consumer.

When that 96k light is on, of course the avearge consumer is going to assume that the audio has become "better" ... even tough they probably wouldn't be able to tell in a double blind test ....it has to be better because the "light is on", like in Spinal Tap when the guy says, "It goes to 11, it's one better"... If they could tell the difference, the market would have never accepted digital audio in the first place. I still think my vinyl collection sounds a lot better than CD versions of the same stuff, scratches, pops, surface noise and all.

pmolsonmus wrote: The bottom line was, if I spent the money to get into PT I was confident that I could take my rough stuff to this studio and get excellent results. I can't say that about any other software. ..... The engineer could pull up my files directly and fix them track by track and I could learn while he did it. To me that's an added value that makes up for the "unfair" price.

This is the point I make .... that compatibility is PT's only advantage. Would they garner this kind of wide spread compatibility if they hadn't entrenched themselves in the market before anyone else? If the field was level and everyone had the same advantage would they rise to the top by nature of their product being the best? I really don't think they would. Do they now exploit this advantage at the expense of the consumer? ... of course they do, and I add they would be nuts not to ... do PT studio owners do the same? Yep! You bet, and why not?

What I don't understand, is the willingness of people to jump on the bandwagon allowing themselves to be overcharged for the privilege of becoming a member of "CLUB PT".. and in the process paying top dollar for sub standard hardware and arguably sub standard s/w. We should know better. It's interesting to me, that a person who grew up in a repressive dictatorship such as Cuba, "gets it", while those who grew up in a supposely "free society", willing walk to the slaughter like lambs being led by a Judas goat ..

At this point, if I were to shop for a studio to work at, the fact that they run PT would actually cause me to take a deeper look at them ... because I can't understand why someone would buy into that myth .. and I would be suspicious that they were using the whole "we have PT' thing, as a way to mask that they don't know what they are doing. There are a lot of idiots with no clue, who have bought PT because they think it automatically makes their operation "more professional" ...

I don't see any ones comments or responses as my being attacked btw. I am glad we are discussing the topic.. not only in terms of PT but as an issue that affects the whole Pro and consumer audio marketplace. It's all good!

Is Kurt right about DIGI? Possibly yes- in his defense, to this date,no one has successfully answered why their stuff (or Waves, or....) is more expensive than similiar items for the physical product.

I think I've answered that question. As far as Pro Tools is concerned, I don't think there is a "similar" product to compare their product to if you're referring to TDM systems. When you buy a Pro Tools system, you're essentially buying a massive expandable digital mixer/effects processor and putting it inside of your computer. You add the ins and outs you need to that. Nobody else offers that in an integrated package like Digidesign does. That's why it costs more. I'm not arguing that it's not expensive, or even that it might not be overpriced...but there's a clear reason why it costs more than the native systems. The thing is, it's just as comparable to more expensive component systems (say, a RADAR/DM2000/Lexicon system, perhaps) as it is to your Nuendo/Cubase/DP systems.

As for Waves, I don't think their stuff is more expensive than similar items. They sell them in bundles, so it may appear expensive, but plugin per plugin, it's pretty inexpensive.

Is Kurt right about B***? Possibly yes- but no one has any documentation of slave labor type conditions-though the reverse engineering and name are obvious.

My biggest problem with them is the fact that they steal others' designs ("reverse engineering" is almost too kind a term for them). To me, they're the hardware equivalent of cracked plugins. I don't have a problem with their name. They are a real German company named after a real German person who manufacture their products overseas. I think they even used to manufacture in Germany? I don't know, and don't really care. I will never buy one of their products, no matter what changes they may make. Not that there's any reason for them to do so from their perspective...what they're doing seems to work fine for them.

I was bringing up the subject from a view point that I see hardly anybody in our society sees anymore: a good product at a 'fair' price. obviously dog eat dog and maximizing profits is the god here and nobody minds. A 'fair price' used to be an issue that I guess went out of favor somewhere in the mid 20th century- so why should I nor anybody care?

I think it's still an issue. I wouldn't buy anything that I didn't consider to be priced fairly (it hurts me to pay close to two dollars a gallon for gasoline, but even that's relatively inexpensive...I lived in Europe for a couple years, and if I recall correctly it was between a buck and a buck-fifty per liter, or four to six bucks for a gallon...and there's also the fact that I don't have a choice there). I'd actually be nervous about buying a product from a company that didn't seem to be good at maximizing profits, especially a digital product...if a company isn't profitable, how can you expect them to be around in a year or two? So how do you determine what a "fair price" is.

I agree that it is feasbale that companies like Apogee become victim of the "upgrade maddness", as much or perhaps even more that the average consumer.

I don't know that they're really victims of "upgrde madness"...they're just producing what people are demanding. It wouldn't make sense for them not to. I wish they had the balls to state in their ads that their products sound as good at lower sampling rates as they do at higher rates, but that wouldn't make any sense from a marketing perspective. I was just impressed that they stated the same thing on a public forum.

When that 96k light is on, of course the avearge consumer is going to assume that the audio has become "better" ... even tough they probably wouldn't be able to tell in a double blind test ....it has to be better because the "light is on"

Exactly. If I'm producing a product that's going to wind up on DVD-Audio, I would have no problem recording it at 44.1kHz and then converting it to 96kHz so the light goes on.

This is the point I make .... that compatibility is PT's only advantage.

I disagree. That may be the main advantage to LE systems, but the processing capabilities of TDM systems are a huge advantage as well.

Would they garner this kind of wide spread compatibility if they hadn't entrenched themselves in the market before anyone else? If the field was level and everyone had the same advantage would they rise to the top by nature of their product being the best? I really don't think they would.

Why not? The field was level when they started out, wasn't it? I don't know my history, but weren't Cakewalk, Steinberg, Opcode and Emagic all around at the time? If they weren't, they certainly were when Pro Tools really started to get "big".

Do they now exploit this advantage at the expense of the consumer? ... of course they do, and I add they would be nuts not to ... do PT studio owners do the same? Yep! You bet, and why not?

I guess I agree...sort of...I mean, the systems cost more, so why shouldn't studio owners charge more? You charge more if you've got a better room, a better mic closet, more gold records on your wall...why not charge more if you hav a more expensive system?

What I don't understand, is the willingness of people to jump on the bandwagon allowing themselves to be overcharged for the privilege of becoming a member of "CLUB PT".. and in the process paying top dollar for sub standard hardware and arguably sub standard s/w.

I think the quality of software is a matter of preference more than anything else...everyone's pretty much keeping up with everyone else in terms of features, et cetera...but really, I still don't see how you can say that the hardware is substandard. The hardware is their strongest feature...strong enough that there are a whole bunch of people out there running Logic on TDM hardware.

We should know better. It's interesting to me, that a person who grew up in a repressive dictatorship such as Cuba, "gets it", while those who grew up in a supposely "free society", willing walk to the slaughter like lambs being led by a Judas goat .

Again, you're getting excited...or at least overreacting. And again, please don't take this as an insult. But I don't see how you can say that the (arguably) largest segment of the professional audio industry, as well as a huge segment of the semi-pro/hobbyist industry and at least what, 23% of the RO community is walking "to the slaughter like lambs being led by a Judas goat" and not realize how insulting that is.

At this point, if I were to shop for a studio to work at, the fact that they run PT would actually cause me to take a deeper look at them ... because I can't understand why someone would buy into that myth .. and I would be suspicious that they were using the whole "we have PT' thing, as a way to mask that they don't know what they are doing. There are a lot of idiots with no clue, who have bought PT because they think it automatically makes their operation "more professional" ...

No argument there. There are clueless idiots everywhere who have purchased expensive TDM systems, or massive PA systems, or huge racks of samplers, or whatever's considered to be the top of their industry, just because they can afford to, and they draw in more clients than the should solely because of the gear that they have.

As for taking a second look at a studio just because they had PT...have you worked on an HD system? I know you've worked on Pro Tools systems before, but have you actually worked on a relatively recent system? I wonder because, regardless of the fact that you don't like the software interface, I don't understand how you could not at least realize what the advantages of the system are, even if they're not advantages that are necessarily important to you.

-Duardo

Just to put another direction to part of this. There is at least one software program that has a fair value: Audacity.

You can download it at
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

The cost for the program is only your download time. But it is also expected that you put back into the program development what you find is a fair value from your point. Either you may add your time, or you may add your money.

You might also say that it does not do everything that program xx does, and that is true. But if you put a bit of your effort into the development (time or money) it will in due time support the things you need.

Gunnar

Duardo ,

No I have not had the pleasure of working on HD.

I agree that software quality is subjective .. and I don't like PT's software at all ...

As far as the PT hardware, I think the mic pres are crappy ... no better than perhaps a RNP .. and to me that is a problem. The converters aren't that great either ... if they were , guys like Russ Knuckle wouldn't be using other converters like he did on the recent James Taylor and the Crosby / Nash projects. Knuckle has used PT for quite a while but he always uses other converters and pres than DD's ... so obviously I am not alone in this feeling. Incidentally, I see a lot of Pros go with that approach, so to me that speaks volumes as to the quality of the hardware.

So again, I wonder why this PT stuff is so expensive ... and I remain unconvinced that the cost is justified by the quality of the product or that at this point, a PT HD system is really capable of doing more than a native system ... especially if the native system uses the TC and UA cards ...

As far as the PT hardware, I think the mic pres are crappy ... no better than perhaps a RNP .. and to me that is a problem.

Which mic pres are you talking about? If you're talking about the ones in the Digi002, you're talking about four mic preamps that are included in a package with an audio interface and software for $1200. I don't think that falls under the "top dollar" category, and for what the package costs they sound fine (and you don't have to use them). If you're talking about the preamps in their high-end Pre that has the same design as the HD interfaces...I assume you're not since they're still not that common, but in case you are...they're priced about the same as the RNP on a per-channel basis and are very nice clean preamps that, I think, are a bit cleaner than the RNP. I realize clean transformerless preamps aren't your cup of tea. But I also don't think they're an issue here, since they're analog preamps that will work with any system and are not very common anyhow. There is no preamp that's "part" of an HD system. Their interfaces are line-level only.

The converters aren't that great either ... if they were , guys like Russ Knuckle wouldn't be using other converters like he did on the recent James Taylor and the Crosby / Nash projects. Knuckle has used PT for quite a while but he always uses other converters and pres than DD's ... so obviously I am not alone in this feeling. Incidentally, I see a lot of Pros go with that approach, so to me that speaks volumes as to the quality of the hardware.

I'm not saying that their converters (talking now about the 192, which is their best converter) are the best out there, but they're by no means bad. Of course, quality is subjective, but they spec out better than and are generally considered to be better-sounding than the various converters in the MOTU and Aardvark and RME and M-Audio and other native systems, as well as the standalone converters from companies like Alesis, Frontier, RME, and so on. The people who use other converters are typically using more expensive converters like those from Apogee, Prism, Lavry, and so on, which is not surpsing since they have the resources to use them. The 192's converters are much better than the converters in the 888, which was their old top-of-the-line converter. I think that the new Apogee stuff sounds better, but it's not a night and day difference like it used to be.

So again, I wonder why this PT stuff is so expensive ... and I remain unconvinced that the cost is justified by the quality of the product or that at this point, a PT HD system is really capable of doing more than a native system ... especially if the native system uses the TC and UA cards ...

The most expensive part of the system are the cards, which are much more powerful than the TC and UA cards. The converters are priced right in line with other high-end converters that they're certainly close to in quality. They use all the good stuff...massive power supplies, top-quality analog circuitry, good converter chips, good clock...and they also are complex digital routers and sample-rate converters. I would suggest sitting in on a session with an HD system if you can. You might be surprised how far they've come in the past few years. As to whether the cost is justified...that's a subjective thing, and it's certainly not justified to everyone...but it certainly can be explained.

-Duardo

Duardo,
You make a good case, I might be convinced at half the price... that is, if a PT HD system (computer included) ran around $10,000, I could see the value.. But my feeling is $20,000 is price gouging.

Related and of interest, I think ... is this [="http://recording.or…
"]thread[/]. I have not even participated in it myself but the opinions on PT seem to lean more to the negative. Check it out!

I think part of the problem today too many people in the audio business want it ALL right now. They do not want to wait for their bank accounts to grow large enough to be able to afford better equipment and they convince themselves that the equipment they can afford will do a just as good a job for them as the expensive stuff.

This is why companies such as Behringer, Roland, Mackie and Tascam have made such in roads into the prosumer market place. You can have a rack of effects or a digital audio console and not have to rob your kids piggy bank to pay for them.

This equipment may not be the best but for many people's needs it is more than adequate and will do a decent job with very little investment.

As you grow in knowledge and skills this level of equipment may not be able to do everything you want and you may also start to notice that it is not quite as good as you first believed it to be.

So you may start looking around for "better" equipment.

Maybe the first thing you want is a better microphone or a better audio console, maybe some new out board preamps or some better effects units. If you do your home work on the net or at your local MI retailer you suddenly realize that if you want better equipment you are going to have to pay more for it.

This time is when many people rediscover the old adage "the cost of doing business" .

If you are running a pro studio and making money then you know
that you have to spend money to make money. If you are a home hobbyist working out of your bedroom or a converted basement then you have to really want that Neumann microphone in order to convince yourself (an maybe your significant other) that it is worth the money to acquire it.

Why does "professional" equipment cost more? Well there are lots of reasons. It is made better with better parts. The equipment is designed to be used day in and day our with very few problems. The power supplies are over designed and can be left on all
day and all night without going into shut down or overheating. It is easy to work with and provides a consistent quality every time it is used. It is designed to be used in a professional operation by people who don't have the time to continually fix it or to have to figure out why it sounds different today than it did yesterday. All of this comes with a bigger price tag.

(Oh yes and most of the top gear has been around for a while so the bugs have all been worked out BEFORE you purchase it so you are not the final QC person like on so many low end products today.)

There is a lot of equipment today that can do a very good job at a
reasonable price point. Companies like Rode, Focusrite, dbx, and t c
electronics (to name a few) make very good equipment for a reasonable price.If you want to go up the ladder further you will soon run into the names like Manley, Neumann, Neve and SSL. This is real "pro" equipment area and they are not cheap but they are what they are and if you want them you have to ante up the asking price

On of my Dad's favorite saying was "Nothing good is ever cheap except love" and we don't even want to go there.

Hope this helps!

My experience is that "professional" gear usually needs more maintenance than it's semi pro counterparts .. because of all that extra energy that the "overbuilt" power supplies deliver .. and the associated heat that accompanies it.

My MCI 636 console needed attention at least once a month and the 2" JH24 tape machine was just as bad if not worse ... of course they both sounded wonderful and were worth every penny it took to keep them up and running.

However, it became difficult to compete with the random access and editing abilities of DAWs and there were studios in the area that while exploiting that advantage, who also did not have the maintenance overhead I had. Long story short, in order to survive, I had to move to digital "DAW land" ... and I really don't feel it was an improvement is sound quality, in fact the opposite. I think it's ironic that I had to "dumb down" the quality factor, in order to compete ... and unfortunately, the story continues, with many being drug kicking and screaming into the pit for the sake of of "compatibility", not because it is the better choice but because we have to get on the bus, in order to survive.

My experience is that "professional" gear usually needs more maintenance than it's semi pro counterparts .. because of all that extra energy that the "overbuilt" power supplies deliver .. and the associated heat that accompanies it.

I don't know that that's necessarily the case with higher-end converters and that sort of thing...their power supplies heat up, but they're also generally well-engineered so they don't get too hot. I think that the problems with tape machines and consoles probably had more to do with moving parts, and maybe aging components, than anything. I would imagine that the stuff that'll wind up needing the most maintenance in the long run will be thinks like control surfaces with moving faders.

You make a good case, I might be convinced at half the price... that is, if a PT HD system (computer included) ran around $10,000, I could see the value.. But my feeling is $20,000 is price gouging.

You can get into a basic 16-input HD system for very close to $10K, computer included. Most people probably start off with a little more, but one of the nice things about the system is that it can grow with you. I'm not trying to say it's cheap, but I don't think even $20K is price gouging...what is that, about half the price of a Euphonix HD recorder? About the price of a higher-end Yamaha or Sony digital console?

Related and of interest, I think ... is this thread . I have not even participated in it myself but the opinions on PT seem to lean more to the negative. Check it out!

Something's odd with that thread...is there a second page? I can't get to it...

Looks like people arguing both sides of the coin there. I think Samplitude is a great program...you'd hope it would be at about a thousand dollars for the software alone. There are threads like that all over the place, comparing just about everything to just about everything else...

-Duardo

Responding quickly to one of Xavier's (maintiger) original requests, I am very pleased with the value I have gotten from my Shure mics. Of course, the SM57 and SM58 are legendary, but I have been extremely happy with my KSM recording microphones. I really feel like the price and value are great. My only quibble is their list price, which can often be twice the street price, which seems like a silly marketing thing to me.

I also have a CAD microphone (M179) that is a great deal. I was also a big AMD processor fan (not technically music gear, but necessary for a DAW), but they have drifted away from the low prices and value that used to characterize their offerings three or four years ago. Of course, they weren't making any money back then...

Speaking of making money, I guess I'm extra impressed with Shure because they've been around for so many years, and they still have great prices.

Oops. Reopened an old thread by mistake. I apologize. Sorry.

So how to determine what a "fair value" is? Figure out the cost of all the parts, all the labor, overhead, R&D, and then figure that anything over a certain percentage above those costs is "unfair"?

fair enough, a fair value or deal is certainly subjective
for me a good value is a kind of quality, price, service package, i simply have to feel comfortable with it, for example Neumann, yeah they are very expensive mics and there are a lot of mics around which deliever nearly or even the same quality, but the service of Neumann is bar none amazing. for me that's a high value for a piece of gear, you don't feel left alone "in case it goes wrong or beaks"

the m-audio audiophile delta 2496 is a stunning card for a laughing price of about 60 pounds now!!!

i don't see anything by digidesign as a good value, everything digi seems to me far to expensive, in my eyes they don't carry a single product which i don't know a better value for, from another manufacturer...

some entry level monitors are great value for money in my eyes, like dynaudio bm5's or bm15's genelec 8000 series. or event 20/20's are great stuff for the budget.

i also love the roland XP-30 for me the best value for money i own, a classic jv-1080 plus two expansion soundmodule cards plus a very decent keybord (i bought it for under the price of the jv-1080 soundmodule standalone version, and that was the original price tag!!!)
not an amazing synth, but a extremely usefull workhorse which finds some sort of use in nearly every track i write...

from motu i don't feel ripped of either, all solid quality gear with good service and prices...

macs for me, i get what i pay for, lots of people say they are expensive, i don't think so at all... reliable, unpacking switching it on... working, no repairs, less often upgrades, less waisted time fixing the comp, or restarting a dozen times a day, and so on... (just my personal experience!!!)

ahh and not to forget, shure oldskool, sm58 and 57, they speak for themselfs... around since decades and on any concert on the planet to find, and most studios... cheap and good and deadly reliable...

that's just a little part of my little list...

Alesis comes to mind. Alesis first brought us the ADAT's (back in the day). Which I had 3 of those. (one XT and two blackfaces)
And the Masterlink is a great piece of gear also. The unit list for like $1799 or something rediculous like.
But really only sells for about $799
A great piece of gear with a "nice" price IMO.
Lastly I would like to add that to my knowledge, Alesis bought Groove Tubes. And changed the name to GT.
So they are also credited with the new GT brick. Another outstanding unit with lots of value and a really nice price range.
I will have to get a couple of those bricks!