I will add, that there is nothing you can do about nodes, and sub woofers will not help them. Nodes are cancelliztions in the listening position. These areas have 0 energy, and cannot be heard, due to the geometry and size of the room. So what happens is you add a Bunch of bass with a sub, and the 'holes' in the response of the low end, don't go away. You cannot amplify something that has 0 energy.

That is what most concerns me when thinking of adding a sub. If my room has problems in the low end which is near impossible to fix, that adding a sub might only make it worse. Currently, I have 2 positions in my control room that I use for checking the sub/low end: 1) Where I sit- which is about 35% from the front of the room 2) and also about 80% in the back of the room. Over the years I've found that if I get these 2 areas working right with regards to the low end that my mixes typically translate.

So I know that by having to use 2 different locations in my room to check the low end that my room is a bit messed up on the low end - big null at 70 where I sit. Over time I've "learned" how to make this work. Adding a sub makes me nervous that I'll mess up the whole "learning curve" I've developed in my head with regards to the low end. I suppose in theory adding a sub could also change what I'm hearing on the low mids (certain relationships) so that I would be creating an additional "learning curve" for myself with regards to low mids?

I've been doing most of my monitoring over the years with the DynAudio Bm6a. I've heard some engineers say they would not add a sub to these and some say that a sub should be added to these particular monitors (??)

Lemme guess your room somewhere around 16x12x8? Off the top of my head.

I like feeling the bass, for fun and for inspiration. A 6-8" speaker only goes so low, no matter what brand. You can always mute and un mute the sub.

Also bass players who like to track in the control room, like the boom from subs. I also split off to a small combo if there's no sub.

With all I've been studying having a standalone bass speaker (sub woofer) makes a lot of sense, buy letting the speakers tackle ranges they physically handle best. In theory, if you disregard room acoustics, and crossover distortions, and phase distortions, that come along with each speaker/tweeter added to a system for a second. All other things equal, a system with a sub should outperform a typical nearfield, becasue it's more efficiently using the amplications power.

It's more a question of how well would a sub incorperate, than whether it's a good idea or necessary or not. A cheap headroom starved sub with a crappy crossover, wimpy power supply, and no name cardboard woofer, is probably not worth it.

A nice well tuned carefully incorperated sub would certainly be more fun and inspiring. Imo

That said. Unless you have maximized your bass trapping in the room, your not even hearing what your 6" drivers are doing, and you wouldn't be getting the most out of any additional speakers either.

My control room can best be thought of as 2 small rooms(rectangles) attached together. The 1st rectangle is 10'8" x 16'4". The ceiling is a small cathedral ceiling that goes from 8' (front&back) to 11' in the middle. The 2nd rectangle(foyer) is at the back of the 1st room and is 6'4" x 9' x 8'. There is no door or any stub walls between the 1st rectangle and the 2nd rectangle.

I have the 1st rectangle acoustically treated just "ok" (4 corner bass trapping/super chunks and 2 side wall panels; nothing on the cathedral ceiling or front wall). The foyer/2nd rectangle is not treated.

So until I have the 2nd rectangle treated and I have the ceiling and front wall treated in the 1st rectangle, it sounds like a sub isn't going to help much? I would probably need some treatment at that odd angle in front where the cathedral ceiling meets the wall I bet too?

Dude you got the room to work with, that's the hardest part!

Yeah man your on the money, sounds like you've already got half the basic treatment done. Here's my humble $1.50 (lol inflation even effects sayings)

The front wall should get (at least) 4-8" rigid insulation covered completely, or at least to the edge or your superchunks. (Are you bass traps floor to ceiling?). Okay treating the front wall with thick treatment keeps it neutral above say 1k, and grabs some of the low end garbage from SBIR. This will clear phantom center and bass.

You probably (guessing from the description, pic welcomed.) would want an additional set(s)!of side panels. To grab any minds and highs bouncing around behind you, in the side to side directions.

The rear (second triangle) is where your saving grace it. That my friend, is a very adequate bass trap. If you super chunk all the corners, and stack/hang/mount some pink R- value insulation in there, finish nice and clean with some ridgid insulation, and fabric for a clean look. Cover with slats or perfersted panels to tune it, if needed. That will make the bass monsterous. Slap a futon in front for seating and rock people's socks off!

The Ceiling I see in two parts, peak section, which would be the triangle at the top. Then the second part would be the front and rear 'faces' below.

The peak is a great simple place for bass trapping. A simple frame the width of the room and some rigid fiberglass. Place some pink fluffy stuff in the void above (the triangle part) and you've got great bass trap coverage. Your not messing w floor space, and with 11'ceilings, you cane really get the depth in the cavity needed to get your 70hz problems.

The faces, I'd just try to knock down any problem reflection points with a moving blanket, foam, or ideally some 2-4" ridgid fiberglass.

Now, put a sub(s) in there, on top of some patio blocks, and some double deflection neoprene.

Your room will absolutely rock. You haven't heard what your speakers are capable yet. I understand that my suggestions would cost about $1-2k (in northeast usa pricing). I also understand it would take us some time and pictures and discussion to get the actual exact numbers, or at least as close as possible with the collective knowledge.

IMHO until you are hearing your speakers as uncolored as realistically possible, making any other sort of upgrades rhubarb int sound quality can and should wait. I didn't always feel this way. Then I mixed in a flat room.

The hard part is the room. Speakers, mics, eqs, all are available, and shipped to your door. Customizing your listiening enviornment into something unobtrusive takes some time work and dedication.

But what that does, is allow to hear every penny of your speakers. And with that sort of treatment which is certainly on the pro side of residential (treatment style type and depths, not physical build) you really would get all the blast that sub is worth. Ideally creating a thick smooth bass, with definition. Solid, no holes.

Sorry, lol living vicariously in your room, this stuff gets me all gassed up.

Wow! That's great stuff. All of these years I've thought my control room is just so-so and not worth a lot of treatment effort. But your thought on using that back foyer space as a bass trap is something I've never thought of. Thank you for that thought process. It makes perfect sense.

Sorry to have hijacked D Thompson's original question/thread.

I tend to get up and pace around the control room at various stages of the mix process. That helps compensate for nodes. Certain places in the room reveal issues at frequencies that might not be heard in the "sweet spot".

+1 on walking around. No room is perfect, yet...

JayTerrance, post: 433785, member: 49019 wrote: Wow! That's great stuff. All of these years I've thought my control room is just so-so and not worth a lot of treatment effort. But your thought on using that back foyer space as a bass trap is something I've never thought of. Thank you for that thought process. It makes perfect sense.

Sorry to have hijacked D Thompson's original question/thread.

It's all good, Jay. ;)

I think that the direction that the original topic drifted towards is still very pertinent. Please don't stop on my account.

One of the suggestions I've heard for using subs in a studio environment is to leave the main speakers full range and tune the sub to their natural LF roll off. That way you're not altering the LF phase response of your main speakers. The disadvantage is that you don't get the headroom benefits.

bouldersound, post: 433817, member: 38959 wrote: One of the suggestions I've heard for using subs in a studio environment is to leave the main speakers full range and tune the sub to their natural LF roll off. That way you're not altering the LF phase response of your main speakers. The disadvantage is that you don't get the headroom benefits.

I don't know where that suggestion came from, but it's one I would take issue with.

The "natural LF roll off" on a standard speaker is far from natural, and is where a lot of the phase irregularities come from. My general rule is that you do not set the crossover between any two speaker transducers at closer than an octave to a low frequency point (-6dB, say) when measured in the cabinet to be used, as the phase deviates substantially from a straight line in this region.

By choosing to use a sub, you not only add the capability of a lower roll-off point to a system of loudspeaker transducers, but you get the opportunity to make the response at the previous LF cut-off region smoother in both frequency and phase. An analogy would be that if you are buying a quality flute, consider choosing one with a low B foot, not so much that it makes it possible to play the (very) few pieces that are written to use a low B, but that it improves the tone and tuning of the low C (the normal lowest note on a flute), which is frequently used in pieces.

Yeah, a speaker is a filter. If it's rolling off it's probably not with0ut the usual phase variations anyway. Might as well use a filter that's steeper than the speakers natural roll off.

kmetal, post: 433784, member: 37533 wrote: Dude you got the room to work with, that's the hardest part!

The rear (second triangle) is where your saving grace it. That my friend, is a very adequate bass trap. If you super chunk all the corners, and stack/hang/mount some pink R- value insulation in there, finish nice and clean with some ridgid insulation, and fabric for a clean look. Cover with slats or perfersted panels to tune it, if needed. That will make the bass monsterous. Slap a futon in front for seating and rock people's socks off!

Sorry, lol living vicariously in your room, this stuff gets me all gassed up.

Just so I am on the same page as what you are describing:

I should first superchunk the back 2 corners in that small rectangle. And then fill up the entire small rectangle all the way to the ceiling with fiberglass? then face it with the rigid insulation and perforated panels? In essence, I would end up with a 6ft W x 9ft L x 8ft H area completely filled with fiberglass?

Just want to make sure I'm totally understanding this. Thank You.

JayTerrance, post: 433909, member: 49019 wrote: Just so I am on the same page as what you are describing:

I should first superchunk the back 2 corners in that small rectangle. And then fill up the entire small rectangle all the way to the ceiling with fiberglass? then face it with the rigid insulation and perforated panels? In essence, I would end up with a 6ft W x 9ft L x 8ft H area completely filled with fiberglass?

Just want to make sure I'm totally understanding this. Thank You.

This is one of the reasons room size matters. You need space for treatment, and the smaller the room the more bulky treatment it needs. The other reason is to exploit inverse square law by increasing the distance reflected sound must travel.

I've attached some sketches from a home theater project. The shorter, thicker trap, is 3'deep and 8' wide. The pink is fluffy insulation, and the green is rigid. We're going to used a combination of superchunks , and straddled panels with fluffy behind it, on all corners, including wall/ceiling and wall/floor. The longer front wall is where the screen is going to be, it's 3' in depth. Sides are 4-8" rigid. I basically copied the designs in the build it like the pros book. I calculated the depths of the cavities and they line up well with the room modes, all based on the rooms dimensions. I don't know enough to be able to predict the response, or the amount of db reduction the traps are doing, but we used all the space we had, and used standard materials, and a design from a well regarded designers how to book. So I am confident it will do a decent job, because I didn't sway from something tried and true.

I always mix with my sub. I know my monitors very well and have no problem mixing everything but low end with them. They just never reach down where I need them to. I bought a 10" studio sub and I have used it ever since. I listen to many other tracks with these monitors and the sub, so I know how most mixed and mastered tracks are supposed to sound with those speakers. I always keep them low in comparison to the tweeters however as not to over power. I think it totally depends on the near field monitors you use.

Mostly i'll mix on my main Monitors but I really like to know what's going on down in the low end before committing to a final mix.

Once i've got most of it down i'll add in the sub just to see if there is anything lacking/overpowering in the lower ranges.

I'd be cautious about using your sub only occasionally unless your room acoustics are superior. I find it essential to get to know the sub and how it reacts in the room with a variety of sources, not just at the sweet spot but all around the room.