That took me back to school days! I think I understand everything now though. Atleast I know my options and how they will effect everything. We have a local Home Depot, so I will look into the tester there and see what the better deal is. I wont be building that rack case we have discussed in the other thread until late this year; so I wont be ordering that stuff for awhile.

UPDATE!

I just picked up at BBR 462 Sonic Maximizer for a good price, so I thought I'd try it out. Where is the best place in my PA to put this?

I was going to put it between the board and amp (for monitors) and between the board and crossover ( for mains). Does this sound best? If this sounds ok, where should I put the EQ once I get it? Before or after the BBE?[/img]

The problem with using a 462 inline with either your mains or monitors is that it uses unbalanced 1/4" ins and outs.
Your Yamaha mixer uses balanced XLR ins and outs, right?

If the rest of your signal path is balanced, I'm afraid you might degrade the audio path by sticking the 462 in the chain. (Still no snake?)

The 462 is designed mostly for semi-pro or instruments. You may be able to get some benefit from it using the insert jacks on a specific channel.

If you get an EQ with BOTH unbalanced AND balanced ins & outs, you may get away with putting them inline - by going

unbalanced outs of MIXER >>> 462 >>> EQ >>> crossover.

Ideally, I'd want the 462 to be just before the crossover, but with the limitations of the unbalanced 462 I can't think of a way to do that.

I'll keep thinking about it and let you know if I think of a way. Someone else may have an idea.

Rock on!

Yeah, still no snake....what advantage concerning this would I have with a snake? I'm not understanding. How much loss in the audio will there be by throwing in an unbalanced line?

I'm going with the DBX 231 EQ, it has XLR and TRS I/O's....is that what you wanted to hear?

Let me know what you think....as always, thanks!

No advantage, just thinking about the best approach using what you have. You definitely do not want to run unbalanced the length of a snake, when that time comes. If you have to run part of the signal unbalanced, make it as short of cable(s) as possible. - as in between the mixer and the crossover. Mixer >>unbalanced cable to >>462 >> unbalanced cable to >> crossover input >> balanced cable to amps.

With your current set-up you can go Aux Out >> unbalanced cable >> 462 >> unbalanced cable >>monitor amp. But you will need to buy or build a special cable to use the XLS amp unbalanced. TS 1/4" on one end and XLR on the other end with the shield and out-of-phase pins 1&3 tied together. If/when you incorporate a snake - a 100ft. of unbalanced returns for monitors will probably suck. In which case, hopefully you'll have the EQ inline to balance it before you get to the snake.

Some people like to have their crossover in their effects rack with their EQs, compressors, reverbs, etc. They end up using it like a 2 band EQ. I think most pro systems would rather put their crossover, or DriveRack, or similar device in their amp rack on stage. It saves you from using multiple returns on the snake for mains & once you've established where you should crossover your system to get the best results you won't want to change it anyway. Use the crossover for crossingover between subs and fullrange, use your EQ for EQing.

The 462 manual:

http://www.bbesound.com/pdfs/462_manual.pdf

Idk what to do about the TS 1/4 - XLR cable you speak of.... I doubt its something I could make myself....I looked on musiciansfriend, but I dont think I found what I need, I could be wrong

I think I will be buying the DBX 231 very soon, so I'll just hook it all up at the same time. I see it is balanced I/O's. I should put it like this right?
MIXER >>> 462 >>> EQ >>> crossover

I'm about to just sell the 462 and rely on the EQ to clean up my sound. OR, use it on my half stack. Suggestions?

You just brought up something I actually never thought of. As of right now my rack case I've built is in 3 sections (for ease of transporting), but when I set up, I put it all together. The mixer, effects, and amps are all in the same location. Maybe I need to change this, but I would then have to buy much longer (50' probably) cables to tie things together from the stage to where I'm mixing.....hmmm I never thought of this. Advantage/Disadvantage?

Reminder, no snake yet.

Also, back to the crossover (cheap DOD Sr835), I have to turn the crossover point ALL the way down to its lowest point (whatever that is, I forget)! : /

I'd wait until you have the EQ to try the 462 for your PA. You're planning on getting an EQ anyway, and if you have 2 spare guitar cables you can try the 462 between the unbalanced mixer output and the EQ's. If it sucks too much of the signal you can try it on the guitar rig.

Do it the way you have been until you get a snake. It will be cheaper to buy a snake than a bunch of 50t. XLR cables.

As you keep adding to your system, eventually you will want to mix from the other end of a 100ft. snake. Mixer and effects racks front-of-house with the amps and crossover in a separate rack or racks on stage. It gives you the best vantage point to make mix decisions and keeps your amps close to the speakers - allowing you to keep your speaker cables short and heavy gauge. Make sure you do not buy one of those snakes that have "power returns". They use 14 gauge speaker wire returns instead of balanced returns, which will severely limit what you can do in the future. 14g is not heavy enough to run 100ft. with any efficiency. There are usually crosstalk issues and you won't have any balanced returns later for a serious PA. So do yourself a favor and get one with balanced returns.

*tired of hearing me hammering home the benefits of balanced everywhere.

The recommended crossover point for those subs is 90Hz. I wouldn't be afraid to see if you like the way they sound with the rest of the system at 100Hz, but not much higher.

Refresher Course on the Crossover:

{old-link-removed}

Concerning the crossover - I just thought it was odd that 90Hz is all the way down on the crossover, and it still has that (stupid to me) 10x option!

I will try the 462 once I get the EQ...I havent looked TOO into snakes yet, but I was looking toward the one linked below. Again, I havent done much research on it yet though.

Snake:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Live-Wire-16x4-Combo-14XLRF-Input-with-TRS-Return-Snake?sku=331090

If you were bi-amping your tops with it or tri-amping - rather than using the passive crossover inside the Yamahas you'd probably cross them somewhere up around 1000Hz - 1200Hz. That's when you would turn the knob to 100Hz and multiply it by x10.

Ahhh got you...now its making sense!

Ok, I'm not worrying about the BBE/EQ right now. Any suggestions on a stage snake for my setup? Looking to spend about $250 for a 50 footer

I am running 3 amps, 4 monitors, 2 mains, 1 sub (for now), and am not real sure how this ties in with a snake (so that I can do as you said-put the amps/crossover on stage). If I were to make this decision on my own, with my knowledge, I would only be using the snake for the Mics.....help!

Heres one i found although I dont know if its what would work for me:

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Live-Wire-16x4-Combo-14XLRF-Input-with-TRS-Return-Snake?sku=331090

ALSO! From an older post....when you say circuit in B, do you mean 2 different outlets, or what? What is the difference between outlets (receptacles i suppose) and circuits?

dvdhawk wrote:
So, you could either:

A) plug a heavy cord with a 2-box like we've been talking about into the wall and plug one Furman into each of the receptacles in the 2-box
B) use two normal cords and pull each one to a different circuit. (these could even be 12 gauge)
C) use two normal cords pulling them both to the wall. (these could even be 12 gauge) (more potential power, and more potential problems possible)
D) park your amp rack within reach of the wall. so that the Furman's power cables can reach the wall socket without any extension cord.
E) make your next Furman a 20A model.

or this snake...ebay last minute alert!

http://cgi.ebay.com…

Fixed link: http://bit.ly/Dq6bE

(Bit.ly, Is.gd, Tinyurl.com, are all fast and free and will stop your links being fubar)

stealthy wrote: ALSO! From an older post....when you say circuit in B, do you mean 2 different outlets, or what? What is the difference between outlets (receptacles i suppose) and circuits?
[quote=dvdhawk]
So, you could either:

A) plug a heavy cord with a 2-box like we've been talking about into the wall and plug one Furman into each of the receptacles in the 2-box
B) use two normal cords and pull each one to a different circuit. (these could even be 12 gauge)
C) use two normal cords pulling them both to the wall. (these could even be 12 gauge) (more potential power, and more potential problems possible)
D) park your amp rack within reach of the wall. so that the Furman's power cables can reach the wall socket without any extension cord.
E) make your next Furman a 20A model.

First let's start with this - this is a standard duplex receptacle. When I say receptacle, this is what I mean. In the vast majority the top and bottom are bridged together - but, they can be split in special circumstances.

And when I say 220v, I mean 220v - 240volts (with 230v-236v being typical in the real world)
And when I say 110v, I mean 110v - 120volts (with 115v-118v being typical in the real world) *Volt meters rock!

Here it is in a nutshell : - if you want the rest just ask.

/begin nutshell

Building's Main Power Panel with Main Breaker >

Individual Circuit Breaker #1 >
Direct run from panel to First receptacle in Circuit #1 >
Varying number of receptacles connected to the first receptacle in the circuit #1 > (this depends on calculated & anticipated load - in Amperes)

Individual Circuit Breaker #2 >
Direct run from panel to First receptacle in Circuit #2 >
Varying number of receptacles connected to the first receptacle in the circuit #2 >

Individual Circuit Breaker #3 >
Direct run from panel to First receptacle in Circuit #3 >
Varying number of receptacles connected to the first receptacle in the circuit #3 >

And so on.....

So what does this all mean? One circuit coming from the Main Panel, can (and usually does) power more than one receptacle.

/end nutshell

A 20-Amp breaker can power up to 2400 watts of gadgets. A 15-Amp breaker can power up to 1800 watts of gizmos. The electrical code in most states doesn't seem to regulate the number of receptacles that are on the circuit as long as the load expected on them doesn't exceed the breaker's capacity.

A typical bar or nightclub like you might be gigging in, would favor 20-amp circuits. But, you never know what you're going to find. Theoretically they are held to a higher standard because they're commercial - unfortunately it isn't always the case. I'm hoping you found a simple receptacle tester, you'd be surprised how often you find them wired wrong. Now that you're venturing into snake territory this is even more important. If you have everything hooked up via your snake you may end up with your amp rack(s) powered from the stage and then you might plug your mixer and effects into a more convenient receptacle 50ft. back the wall. If one receptacle is wired right and the other one wrong the interconnected grounds will raise holy hell when the opposing forces meet. Unintentional pyrotechnics are not cool. I pull a medium duty extension cable from the amp rack to my mix position to avoid that. Routing it away from the snake as much as possible.

Often times (but not always) in bars and nightclubs they will alternate the circuits & receptacles. Meaning if there are, for example, 5 receptacles along a given wall (from left to right) A B C D E. They often have A C & E connected to Circuit #1 while B & D are connected to Circuit #2 etc. But you never know for sure, so knowing how to use a multimeter can help you isolate at least 2 circuits in some cases.

Like we talked about before, your main goal is to get your sub-amp(s) powered from a different circuit than the rest of your rack whenever possible. And even more importantly - do whatever it takes to keep your stage lights, if you have any, off the circuits you're using for sound.

The first thing I do when I get to a new venue is ask if anybody knows anything about how the circuits are laid out in the room. Places that are music venues get that question a lot, or else they spend a lot of time resetting breakers. Your better venues will be able to answer that question for you. And another thing we talked about in the previous post, if it's a new venue for me - I absolutely will not plug any of my gear in without at least testing the receptacle with a simple receptacle tester to verify that the ground, hot, and neutral are all where they are supposed to be.

For my club system I either want a 50-amp or 60-amp 220v connector on the stage or at least 4 x 20-amp 110v circuits. If you're wondering what's up with the 220v - I have my own distro panel, which is basically a portable version of the Main Panel discussed above. Except my distro is wired with each breaker feeding just one duplex receptacle. 60-amps of 220v = 120-amps of 110v ( 6 x 20-amp circuits).

Someone running an arena sized system has feeder cables as big around as your arm and a giant power distro rack many times the size of mine, but the principles are the same.

Good clean power increases your chances of having good clean sound.

Thanks Dave

Now, I've been hearing and reading alot of different things as far as gain staging and getting the PA setup properly and in correct order. I know there is a channel gain, peak led, channel volume fader, master volume fader, and SENSITIVITY knob on the amp. How do YOU suggest I go about setting levels to get the most headroom possible and best sound?

Dont you love how my questions continue to spill out? Dave, thanks for helping a 24 year old aspiring sound guy out! Its what I love to do, and I want to be the best I can. I have some equipment, and just want to use it to its fullest potential!

EDIT - P.S. I just got another Crown XLS 802d amp, and a Sennheiser E602.

Hi BJ,

This is what I would do to get your Gain Structure in the ballpark:

Given the gear I know you have, I'd work backwards through the chain to make sure you're not pushing the mixer more than you have to. I don't know if they're still this way, but with the old (late 80s) Yamaha MC2404 mixer we used to use, you had to be really careful about having a kosher gain structure. It sounded good if you took care of the signals, but if you abused any of the channels, subgroups, or mains it would get ratty sounding pretty quick. Our FOH guy at the time was great, but if another band brought their own soundman who tried to push the Yamaha in the wrong way several things happened. It made that band sound bad. It made more than one soundman suspect we were deliberately sabotaging his efforts to make us sound better by comparison (which I swear we never did - but it does happen). It made us appreciate our soundman. It made our soundman look like a genius. Moral of the story, every mixer has it's own rules it wants you to play by.

With that in mind; let's set the amp and crossover, dial in the mixer - then back to the crossover and amp for the final adjustment. The first time you do this, it might be a process you have to go through several times, fine tuning forwards and backwards until you get it as close to perfect as possible. Once you have baseline setting for where to set the crossover and amps it should be pretty consistent job to job. Different rooms might need more or less bass, but max gain is max gain in every room.

I would start with the XLS amps turned up all the way.

I would start with your crossover 'Gain' control at about 80%. The 'Low Level' & 'High Level' crossover output levels will be at 'unity gain' when they're at the position marked zero. Feel free to change the High and Low Levels a little bit if you need to change the balance between sub and fullrange. A good way to start would be to connect a CD/iPod/whatever to the mixer and play a song you know really well and turn the Highs (in your case Fullrange cabinets) to the Zero position and then dial in the subs to taste by increasing the Low Output Level. [For the Purpsoe of Review: Your specific crossover frequency is down around 90Hz make sure you're not multiplying x10 and make sure you're in 'stereo' mode (even though you're really running in mono)]

The mixer will be just a little more complicated. I'm hoping you already know some of this. Each signal passes through several amplifier stages from the time it comes into the mixer to the time it leaves the mixer. Each channel has a pre-amp controlled by the Channel Gain. Next it goes through the EQ section, which isn't technically an amp, but when you boost any of the 3 bands you're amplifying something. Then it passes through a separate amp circuit associated with the Channel Fader. Then depending on your routing, it may be amped again in the Subgroup Faders and finally one last time at the Master Fader. ( Your 3 auxes are 3 more amps, but they're independent of the signal chain we're talking about right now )

Ideally in audio Utopia Channel Gains can be adjusted so that your Master / Subgroup / and Channel Faders will look more or less like this.

You'll notice the faders are marked -∞ at the bottom and +10 at the top. Negative infinity is an infinite amount of attentuation (OFF). +10 is 10 dB of boost. The faders in the picture are all set at Zero, which is what is called "unity gain" - in other words, no cut & no boost. Ideally during your set-up you can adjust the Channel Gains for each instrument and vocal so the signal flows through without any unnecessary attenuation or unnecessary boost.

Too much Gain on the channel running into a fader set way down low creates a bottleneck that degrades the audio. If you get the channel perfect and then have the subgroups and master faders set low, same thing - degraded signal. You want the signal to pass through each stage as unimpeded as possible. Unity gain is where that happens.

Conversely, setting the Channel Gain too low and pushing the fader to +10, is asking too much of the fader's amp, and it doesn't give you any room to boost the signal later for a solo.

Since each incoming signal can vary from one extreme to the other [acoustic guitar vs. snare drum] , it's a balancing act that you have to do for each specific signal source. Your mixer has Peak lights and Output Meters on it, use them. A Peak light that blinks once in a while isn't the end of the world, but one that comes on for more than a split second means you're plowing the channel somewhere along the way. Trimming back the Gain until it stops clipping will be necessary to keep the signal from distorting. And remember that heavy boosting in the EQ is usually going to clip the channel too.

I know some guys who leave the channel muted and then turn up the Gain until the Peak light just starts to blink and then they back it off a little bit. The thinking is, that's the maximum amount of Gain you can give that signal before clipping. I don't disagree with that method, except in the cases where they do that step and then run the fader at -30. It's better to Zero the fader and back off the Gain until you're in the ballpark of the level you want.

That being said, I know other guys who take the unity gain theory to the other extreme and set all the faders at Zero and then proceed to try to mix the whole gig using the Gain knobs. Theoretically ok, but the talent will HATE that. The Auxes are pre-Fader, but everything on a channel is directly affected by the Gain, so tweaking the Gain will affect the Auxes too, which means if you're trying to mix with the Gains you are constantly screwing with their Monitor Mix. Keep the talent happy and don't make any big adjustments to the Gains once they're happy with the monitor mix. Set the gains at the beginning of the gig and mix with the faders. Unless something radically changes level, you shouldn't have to adjust the Gains during a show.

If you've done everything right up to this point hopefully your output meters will hovering between -10 and +10 averaging around the Zero (notice the little arrows bracketing the Zero LEDs - Unity Gain). Again, if you're peaking the Output Meters it's time to go through the process again and refine your mixer settings. Check to see if there's one channel that's pushing you over the limit (I'm looking at you Mr. Kickdrum). I know you're doing a lot of hardcore so screaming vocalists, kick drums, snare drums, and bass guitars are probably the worst culprits when it comes to extreme spikes.

Now the final step: If you have the mixer running at or near unity gain, and you're happy with the overall volume, watch the amps while the band is playing to make sure you're not overdriving the crossover and amplifiers. When it comes to clipping, in my opinion, it's worse to clip the amp than to overdrive the mixer a little bit. With the mixer optimized, you might be getting more volume than you know what to do with. If that's the case you can take a little Gain at each of the channels and/or go to the amp rack and adjust the Gain on the crossover and/or reduce the Output Levels on the amplifiers - or a combination of the three.

Hopefully that gives you someplace to start. I'm running on very little sleep this weekend. So, I'll re-read this in the morning and make sure it makes sense.

Always glad to help an aspiring soundguy!

WALL OF TEXT!

OK, a few thoughts from when I started applying gain structure correctly.

"Moral of the story, every mixer has it's own rules it wants you to play be."
This is key. On ours, I like to keep faders at -5dB, the printing is incorrect so putting them to what appears to 0 actually puts them in an area where the slightest nudge upwards adds 2dB.
Oh, and the preamp gain control jumps 10dB at the exact point where unity would be on a line level source.

"And remember that heavy boosting in the EQ is usually going to clip the channel too."
Personally I prefer to cut crap - although sometimes there's a need to boost a little bit rather than cut a massive hole elsewhere.

"With the mixer optimized, you might be getting more volume than you know what to do with."
Definitely. I'll run out of headroom in the speakers (400W) before the mixer runs out of headroom - and this is just a low-end Phonic.

The downside is I'm having to raise the gain on the preamps to a silly level - but it's not the end of the world.

BTW, dvdhawk - I read everything except the amp/crossover setting (powered mixer) and it all makes sense.

Stealthy, I agree with Monsignor Monkey 100%

Know your mixer, and cutting is preferred to boosting. But be aware that boosting is, in effect, another amp.

Wall of text you say? - Aren't you glad we didn't delve into the input and output voltages of the mixer, crossover, and amps?

Wow, short answer!!!

Very well guys. So heres the jist of how I understand it....

Turn amps all the way up. Crossover gain about 80%, highs/lows at unity. Set master fader to unity. Set Ch. faders to unity and dial in gain til it clips and back off a bit. Hopefully, and trying to keep the Ch. faders as close to unity as possible. If this overall volume is too much, back off the amps until proper volume is achieved.

Correct?!

It may have been a wall of text but it was a great wall.

There may be exceptions, but I think that's a good place for you to start. It wouldn't necessarily be ideal for everyone, so I wanted to explain some of the 'whys'. Considering the specific equipment you're working with - that should get you started in the right direction. You may have to adjust the Crossover gain too until you find the right level. And don't be afraid to experiment with the Fullrange vs. Sub levels on the crossover - as long as you're not clipping the amps.

Hey don't look now, but just a couple months ago this thread was called "My PA Future". I think you might have surpassed that wishlist.

Good going!

Haha, we'll I've changed a few directions since the beginning of this thread, now that I kind of know what I actually need. I figure I'd rather have quality sound with the stuff I have now, rather than trying to impress people with a bunch of equipment that I cant make sound good! I do however want to upgrade the BR15's to S115v's later this year, and add a second sub, but that will come :)

All I've been doing lately is reading through all of the old threads in this section. Below I found something that I thought maybe I should look into since I'll be getting an EQ soon...Where can I get one of these and how would I actually use it?

mark_van_j wrote: I have a test CD I made that has 31 frequency tones. One for each eq fader on a 31 band eq. I run it through, listen for any major peaks or dips in the sound system or room. I then use the eq to fix the foh sound to get the most balanced sound possible. Usually I don't need more than a 2dB cut or boost, on a max of 4-5 frequencies. Anything more than that I see as bad gear or bad room, and try not to exagerrate.

But this means you need at least 15 minutes behind the mixer for every show, before sound check.

That's what I use it for. I don't use it for anything other than fixing the room and PA system. Which means it doesn't really matter what type of music the band is playing.

Pink noise and test tones will be tedious to the club owners, patrons, bartenders, concert goers, pretty much everyone. Find a CD that you're really Really REALLY familiar with, one that has tracks that are sonically rich from the lows to the top of the spectrum. Tight bass, crystal clear highs and everything in between. Try EQing your system to make that sound the way you know that track should sound. Use the same one or two CD tracks (iPod tracks, whatever) to dial in your PA at every gig. You can resort to pink noise if you are still struggling.

I've been using the same track for years and years. I've EQed client PA systems using my favorite track and gone back later when I had the analyzer, and it's been darn near perfect.

Good luck man.

Ok, guess I need to find a good track or two!

stealthy wrote: Ok, guess I need to find a good track or two!

Steeley Dan, early Police, Peter Gabriel, or Queen.

Hmm not real familiar with any specific songs from them to be honest! Haha, remember, I'm 24 ;)

Is there a reason I should have the crossover in the same rack as the amps on stage opposed to my other rack? When it comes to setting/adjusting the crossover settings I'd think it'd be easier to have it with my effects/mixer rack....

Also concerning the crossover...I do alot of acoustic gigs in which I dont even take my sub. Can I still plug into the crossover like normal without making any changes or should I just bypass the crossover all together?

You can use it at the Effects rack on the mixer end if you prefer, it might even be best for you to do that as you get your system optimized.

There's a downside: - but none of these are big issues for you right now.

1) Once you get a gain structure dialed in on the crossover that makes your speakers/amps sound their best, you won't need to adjust it much. At least not with a Fullrange+Sub configuration.

2) It will take 2 of your snake returns to send Fullrange and Sub back to the amps - no biggie, you can spare them at the moment and worry about that later when you need more than 2 monitor mixes - or should you decide to go stereo. (which is seldom worthwhile doing the club scene)

3) Eventually you'll want to use that Effects rack space for something else - no biggie, you can worry about that later when you have your FX rack filled with other goodies.

When you're doing an acoustic gig you can do it either way, either bypass the crossover completely and go straight into the fullrange amp. Or use the crossover and just leave the sub amp turned off. Your crossover point is 90Hz, so it would be like running a low-cut (highpass) filter on your whole system. An acoustic guitar generally doesn't have anything down there below 90Hz that you will want to amplify. But if you've got a djembe or some sort of bass or keyboard I'd bypass the crossover and let the top cabinets try to reinforce the bass frequencies below 90Hz.

I've got all of Davedog's recommended artists on my iPod's pre-show / break music playlist -all good stuff highly recommended.

Here's my favorite CD for dialing in a PA: Rockland by Canadian guitar hero Kim Mitchell. It's nearly as old as you are, but of all the CDs I own this is still one of the best sounding start to finish. He is one of Canada's favorite sons (yes, a guy named Kim), but he never made much of a splash down here in the US - probably by choice. The song styles are pretty varied, some wild rockers and some kinda mellow - and you may have to give it a couple listens before it grows on you. His entire catalog of work is worth a listen, both solo and with a band called Max Webster. But as someone interested in mixing and recording you might learn something from it because the tones and sonic quality are absolutely stellar.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001YKS/?tag=r06fa-20

The first track is all you need to dial in a PA. Sonically rich, musically interesting, extremely well produced. The bass and drums are present like you would hope to have them live. The guitar tones are beautiful and the vocals sit on top without being obnoxious. The tones of all the instruments are just perfect.

YouTube's compression has butchered the audio quality as usual, but here's a lo-fi sample of that first track.

[youtube:425efc8627]http://www.youtube…]

It may or may not be your cup of tea musically, but if you can make that track sound as good through your PA as it does on a nice home stereo - you're off to the races when the band starts.

Even if by some chance you hate it, it beats the hell out of subjecting the locals to test tones.

Okie Dokie sounds good Dave! BTW - Just ordered that OSP 16x8 50' snake :)

Ok, so I had a gig lastnight, and got to use some new stuff for the first time - new amp, new snake, and sennheiser e602. When I was using this mic on the kick, I literally had the gain turned ALL the way down, and it was just barely not peaking. I had to play with the EQ a bit to keep it from clipping. Highs all the way down, mid-high about 10 o'clock, mid-low at 12, and low at about 3. Why is this?! Also, my sub amp (Crown XLS 802d) running my Yamaha SW118v in bridged mode @ 8ohms (1600w) was clipping when the amp was cranked 100%, so I had to turn it to about 50% to keep from clipping. Other than that, everything went pretty well.

It's not unusual to have to pad kick and snare mic's.

I had a similar ailment. The doctors failed to tell me that a side-effect of fixing your gain structure was noticing clipping problems and also having ridiculous input volume to the amps, to the point where you need to turn outputs down to match your input mastery, rather than up to match your input inequalities.

Where (exactly) did you have mic?

Since your board doesn't have a pad button, you might want to get yourself an inline pad for the kick. You know you can still pull the slider down and ease up on the low boost EQ if it's crushing the amp. Unity on the faders is nice if you can get it, but when a signal is excessively hot you gotta do what you gotta do.

Also, try adding some beater to the kick drum EQ up somewhere between 2kHz - 4kHz and maybe you can get the kick more present in the mix while you back off some of the boominess that is.

Inline Pads:
markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?off=0&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=padblox&pagesize=0

markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?off=0&sort=prod&skuonly=0&search=cvpblox&pagesize=20

Dave, I had the mic in front of a kick drum on two, and SLIGHTLY in on another.

Yeah, I had the slider on the kick channel pretty low. Do you think that inline pad would be worth it and help out all that much? I'll try your eq suggestion next time too, thanks!

CODE- So what did you do to fix the problem?

Well I keep my input levels peaking at about -10 (the pres are pushed incredibly hard, I'm convinced something is loose, I diverse...) and so I run a 300W amp with most of the faders at -5dB.
The volume LEDs show the peaks on the master at -20dB. So I'm probably way quiet but still.

(It's a powered mixer btw so I can't just adjust some amp sensitivity knob)

BJ,

Since it's blitzing the input with your gain turned all the way down, yes I'd buy an inline pad of some sort. You have to tame that signal down a little bit. The occasional red light isn't the end of the world, but if it's clipping the amp regularly speaker damage becomes a real threat.

If the kick drum has a hole in the front head I'm not crazy about putting the mic right at the hole. That puts the mic in a position where there will be a pretty strong burst of air blowing into the mic with every beat. I'd rather either stick it completely inside, mindful of angle and distance from the beater. Or, I'd leave it well outside the drum (maybe 6") and away from the hole.

With my drummer and the mics we're using, putting the mic inside works very well, but it won't be appropriate for everybody.

Point taken Dave, I'll try that method out next weekend!

Oh, and Dave, that first link you gave me didnt work, just the one to the Variable Pad w/Mute....what about the In-Line Attenuator as seen on this page:

markertek.com/icat.php?template=f014

Sorry I don't know what else to do with such a long link. They work for me here. Copy and Paste will always work on your end. They sell both kinds of pad modules there.

http://www.markertek.com/

http://www.markertek.com/

Oh ok got it...what DB should I get? -10, -20, -30, or -50db?

Try one of these instead, either 20 or 30dB should be plenty.

http://www.fullcompass.com/search.php?txtAll=whirlwind+imp&txtBrand=&sortOrder=