for me your problem is with pre-amp... and those overheads aren't that special too

what are you using???

Place a dynamic mic on the bottom of the snare and see if that give you the high-end you are lacking. I think you'll be suprised how much snap and sustain you can get by just barely tucking the bottom snare mic in to the mix.

btw. the bottom mic will be out of phase. correct that in post.
Chris

I almost always use a condensor of some sort on the snare top or snare shell. Use that with a 57 (watch for phase) and you should be good to go.

ROCK!

A B1 on the kick? hmmmm .... I wouldn't do that myself ...

IMO if you can't get enough high end with a 57, there's something going on with the source (snare drum) and not the mic ..

thank's for all the answer guys..i will try to put another mic on the bottom......

and Kurt...try to put a SP B1 outside your Kick at about 6'' from the center of the kick,,,,,,and if you don't get a great sound,,,,,then you could be ''kind of sarcastic '' ,,,,,,,,,and by the way, the source( the snare and the drummer) are fine thank you,,,,javascript:emoticon('8-)')

bigbone wrote:
Kurt...try to put a SP B1 outside your Kick at about 6'' from the center of the kick,,,,,,and if you don't get a great sound,,,,,then you could be ''kind of sarcastic '' ,,,,,,,,,and by the way, the source( the snare and the drummer) are fine thank you,,,,javascript:emoticon('8-)')

Why would I want to do that? So when I turn it up I get a ton of bleed from the rest of the kit ... ??? I get exactly what i want from a D112 or a D6 inside the drum .... unless the drum sucks. Placing more mics outside the kick only creates phase delays, dulling the definition. The fewer mics used (on anything) the better overall ....

.... and like I said, if you are not getting plenty of highs from the snare with a 57, there's something screwy goin' on .... the drum, the mic , placement or your ears ...

No sarcasim intended btw, ... in either of my posts .

If the drummer plays timidly, and not into the drum, a '57 might capture more of a "kwang" than a "snap."

You might try a PZM on the floor beneath the snare and "tuck" this into the mix (well said, LittleDogAudio).

For me my OH's capture enough of top snare sound for me, I do what Little Dog has suggested and mic the bottom only. Close to the edge, inline with the snares and angled toward the center. This method let's me blend in just as much of the crispy snare sound as I want. I haven't used a top snare mic in quite some time. I usually use a 57 but have sometimes used (no laughter now) a Peavey PVM 38 with good results.

I have never heard of a 57 not having enough top....

That being said I like a 57 on some snares and I like it almost parallel to the top of the head just peaking over the rim away from the hat and towards the drummer..I will on occasion use a bottom mic and for this I like the Beyer 422....The Beyer 201 is a great snare mic also...I've also used a Sennheiser 409 underneath the snare for some added big lows as well as added snare sound...

No sarcasm here.

Kurt Foster wrote: [quote=bigbone]

Why would I want to do that? So when I turn it up I get a ton of bleed from the rest of the kit ... ??? I get exactly what i want from a D112 or a D6 inside the drum .... unless the drum sucks. Placing more mics outside the kick only creates phase delays, dulling the definition. The fewer mics used (on anything) the better overall ....

.

if you put a packing blnket over the mic or put it at the other end of a tunnel you wont have problems with bleed and with propper mic placement (or an ibp) you wont have phase problems. i use an NTK out side my Kik and i will never go back to just a dynamic inside it just provieds a bigger sound. maybe its just me. as far as the snare goes ive been using a pencil condenser in conjuction with a 57 either on the shell or on the bottom blend to taste and viola a nice crisp snappy snare. ( i wish it was a simple to do as it was to type) had an urge to try this neumineese LDC that ive had a hankerin to try as well but havent had the aplication to try ( bad drummers suck!)

daeve

I wana thank you guys for all your imput, and i think i found the right mic for what i want and the sound that i want , it's the bayer M201, it's not that i don't like the 57 , it's a great mic, but for my taste, i think the bayer 201 is what i'm looking for, and by the way , i hope i didn't offend anyboday when i said don't be sarcastic, it's just that i did know that my drums sound great,and by the way ,i little bleed for the other mic, as far as recording goes ,it's great,if not, might well use sample.......that's what's make a drums sound huge, but i'm talking here a WELL tune drums, with a drummer who are SOLID....
thank's again for all your answer.

Kurt----

The fewer mics used (on anything) the better overall ....

--------

To me, this would only be true if you are using a limited number of tracks. Even if you only use them for special fx, its always good to have some extra perspectives. And on drums esp... room mics and bleed are better than digital reverbs.

Yes 57's can give you lots of top but it's a different type of top than a condensor will give. If I use the MP2NV and EL8x on the 57 snare top then I can get really nice results. However, if we're tracking an entire band at once often that combo gets moved to something else. So then I just go direct to the Allen and Heath board, minimal eq and use the 1176LN UAD1 for comp. That's when I like to have a condensor on the top. I also prefer a condensor not a dynamic for snare bottom. I blend the condensor top with the 57 instead of reaching for lots of eq. Also a condensor on the kick is cool b/c just a dynamic in the kick is a little too "upfront, jumping out of the speakers" for me. I've worked in a number of bigger studios that don't even use dynamics on kick, condensor all the way (often no front head). It's all up to taste.

Kurt, I agree often less mics are better, BUT not always. If you really watch for phase then sometimes extra mics, bleed etc can give a more organic feel to drums........lots of things for that matter. I'm shure we all know this though...

ROCK!

I know about packing blankets and the tunnel trick. I have tried them all and at one time I though this was the way to do it too but I have come back from that pov.

A mic a foot out from the kick, will crate a signal that is picked up "later" (in time) than the mic inside the drum ... and even if the outside mic is in phase with the mic inside the drum, unless you physically slide the track back in the DAW to align it with the inside mic, it will smear the impact. For me, definition is the key ..

I know all about all the outside mic tricks, the speaker for a mic trick but for me the best results come from one well placed mic inside the drum if possible.

As for leakage, I personally fight it as much as I can ... if I want to turn up the click in the kick drum, I don't want to be adding snare too ...

Room mics are fine, great e-ven .... IF YOU HAVE A GOOD ROOM! ... but how many of us have that? If the room doesn't have 14 foot or higher ceilings, is smaller than say, 15 by 20 feet and well treated, IMO adding room mics will sound worse than not.

The best drums I have recorded were with 4 mics ... (well, three really) a C24 overhead, a C12a on the snare and a D112 inside the kick ....

IMO as with all things, less is more.

A c12 AND a C24?

What a show-off.

Chris

C12a ... the predecessor to the 414 ....

hey kurt.... I hope this doesnt start anything... but, this is my thought on why I do it the way I do...

when you line up all the tracks as you mentioned what happens is you create more transient peaks. By having the two mics in phase the time difference smooths out the transient peak of the kick or snare or any drum and adds tone or better said thickness and sustain. Now, you might say that what I have just said is exactly supporting what you said... but its different, and may not be logical at all, this doesnt cause a loss of deffinition but rather adds impact, because your sound is now not a peak and then tone. The peak and tone have been combined to create one sound.

if that doesnt make any sense I'll try to say it better

The one thing I can say for sure when it comes to audio is that different things work for different people ... tastes vary widely (as in; How many producers does it take to make a record? Ten, one to actually do it and nine to stand around and say "I could have done that better").

I know the effect your referring to and personally I don't care for it ... but if you like it, then for you that's what works.

In my world , less is more.

Hey Kurt.......Do you got a track record that i can listen to, i wana know what you did in the ''real recording'' world so i can listen to your many technique that you talk about in the forum......

Thank you