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well here's the biggest question for my DAW studio so far...after deciding that to be taken seriously as a commercial studio i would need an analog desk, i realised i don't know that much about them. i've only worked in two studios, one with an mci 500 series (which i liked but was constantly in need of maintenance), and one with a soundworkshop series 34 (which needed no maintenance, but which looked and sounded gay).

my question is, what kind of desks around $15k should i be considering, which won't force me into several expensive tech days per month, but which will give me that beautiful sound, and will suitibly impress the clients? can it be done on this sort of money? one other problem i have is living in australia. those mixing desks sure are costly to ship...but just for now, what sort of desks would you recommend i look into? the sound of the pre's are very important to me, as i'll have to start without any outboard pre's.

thanks

Comments

anonymous Thu, 05/12/2005 - 12:12

I would have to second that Midas mention by Brian. They make great boards. I have used a few live and in the studio and I really wish I could afford one for myself. But I get by with my Mackie 24-8. It's in use pretty much as a monitor mixer only anyways so no point in upgrading unless I want a lot more decent pre's to use.

Mumbles Thu, 05/12/2005 - 21:35

Hi,
I'm sorry, but if you're looking in the $15,000 range.. don't get a Midas.
For that kind of money, you owe it to yourself to check out some boards that are more suited for the studio.
Now, it depends what you need/want.
New vs. old?
How many channels?
Also, the whole "wow factor" thing is tricky. In the $15k range, name recognition will get you a nice Trident, but not a Neve, SSL or API... which are the names that 90% of garden variety musicians know.
You have to wiegh the "wow factor" with the "get them in the door with amazing results" factor... the later is usually cheaper.

Just my 2 pesos.
Seamus

anonymous Fri, 05/13/2005 - 04:36

well, all talk of the word "gay" used in a derogatory sense aside, what i'm looking for is 24 to 32 channels, something which (subjectively) will be an improvement over in the box mixing, and which contains great mic pres. basically i'm asking if i can get something good enough to justify the money, rather than mixing in the box and spending the $15k on these outboard pres:

api 3124+ x3
chandler tg2
gordon model 5
dw fearn vt2

it should also look like a solid bit of kit to the average musician who has seen a couple of studios, but wouldn't know the name neve from behringer, as i think 90% of them don't know anything about pro audio whatsoever, at least in my experience. as long as it leans towards the neve in the looks department rather than looking like an oversized mackie, i'll be happy. actually, i'd be happier keeping it digital rather than buying a cheap compromise of a desk, but i'm not financing the studio, someone else is, and they want the looks to impress and don't have a neve budget. anyone have an mci that isn't a maintenance hog?

KurtFoster Fri, 05/13/2005 - 08:57

15K isn't going to get you too far .... At that price you are best off thinking about a decent digital console .. like the Sony DMX 100.

As far as a "gay" console, I'm not sure what that meant? .... Would ia "gay sounding" console be purple with a permenantly engaged de esser on every channel so everything passed through it sounded as if it had a "lisp"?

Midlandmorgan Fri, 05/13/2005 - 10:25

Kurt Foster wrote: 15K isn't going to get you too far .... At that price you are best off thinking about a decent digital console .. like the Sony DMX 100.

Kurt,

This is just not true...

Here's the results of a two minutes search I did for used consoles...many of them are absolutely KILLER (others aren't)...but as you can see, 15K will take you very far down the road...

From Blevins

11CAE AMEK MOZART 40 INPUT(MZ11)/12 STEREO RTNS/ SUPERT 28,000
11ABJ AMEK LANGLY BIG 28 SEE BEST CONSOLES 8000
11CAA CAD MAXICONII 32 INPUT, BUILTIN PB, MANUAL 3900
11CAB HARRISON * 3624 36 INPUT/3 BD EQ/4SNDZ/LIGHTMETR/PATCH 5000
11CAG MACKIE * 32x8x2 32in w/meter bridge, custom cabinet 2,300
11ABF MCI JH652-52-L 52 INPUTS/JH50 AUTOMATION/LIGHT MTR 10,000
11BAV MCI * JH636-36AF 36 INPUTS - SEE BEST CONSOLES SOLD
11ABN MCI * JH636-32 32 INPUTS - SEE BEST CONSOLES 7200
11BAF MCI * JH636 VU/AF 36 INPUTS, 8 PARA EQ, 10 RETURNS PENDING
11CAJ MCI JH400 32 IN, 24 BUS CUSTOM, CIRCA 76' JUST LISTED
11CAM MCI JH500 "d" V DETAILS COMING PENDING
11CAL MCI JH528D AF 28 IN, LIGHT MTRS, JH50 AUTOMATION JUST LISTED
11BAL NEVE 8232 32 IN w/ OPTIFILE AUTO, LOCATED SE JUST LISTED
11CAO SONY MXP-3036 36 INPUT-DETAILS COMING IN JUNE JUST LISTED
11BAW SONY MXP-3056 93" 56 input, LM, no automation 18,500
11CAF SOUNDCRAFT TS24 32FR-28INPUTS/4 BD EQ/6 SNDS/PB/LED MAKE OFFER
11CAI SOUNDCRAFT 2400 DETAILS AVAILABLE JUST LISTED
11BAK SOUNDTRACS CM4400 DETAILS AVAILABLE JUST LISTED
11CAC TAC * SCORPION I 28INPUT, 12 SPLITBUS, 24 MON w/PB 2500
11CAH TAC SCORPION I 32 INPUTS LOCATED IN CHICAGO MAKE OFFER
11CAP TRIDENT 90 SERIES DETAILS AVAILABLE JUST LISTED
11BAZ TRIDENT 80B 32X24X24 NO EQ ON MONITORS, CABLES SOLD

CONSOLES WITH 24-32 INPUTS
12BAK AMEK ANGELA 28 INPUT CONSOLE W/PATCHBAY 7000
12ABB MACKIE 32x8x2 32 INPUT w/METER BRIDGE 2500
12BAI MCI JH-528B 28 INPUT 1977 DETAILS COMING JUST LISTED
12BAB MCI * JH416 A/B 24 FRAME w/24 IN SEE BEST CONSOLES SOLD
12BAF MCI JH528D 28 INPUTS, DETAILS COMING, IN CALIF JUST LISTED
12BAH SOUNDCRAFT TS-12 70 INPUTS IN REMIX, DETAILS AVAILABLE JUST LISTED
12AAI SNDWKSHOP * 1600/ARMS 28 IN/3 DIFF EQ'S/ARMS AUTOMATION 3500
12BAD TAC * SCORPION I 24 INPUTS, 16 BUS, 16MON, EQ SOLD
12AAK TRIDENT MODEL 24 28 INPUTS, 24 OUTPUTS, TT PATCH 7000
12BAG TRIDENT SERIES 65 24x8x16 RECAPPED, BUTT BROWNS JUST LISTED

From Odyssey

Model Quantity Unit Price

24 track Package: Teac M15 console & Digi ProTools LE 001 system! 1 $1,795
Allen & Heath Saber 32x16, patchbay, sidecar, excellent condition 1 $7,500
Amek Angela (blue)28x24 with patch bay 1 $5,000
Amek Big 28x12, w/custom flight cases and 6x96 pt patchbays 1 $12,000
Amek M2002A 28x16x24, RH bay, poor man's NEVE! Warm & punchy! 1 $10,000
Amek Media 51 28 frame with Supertrue & Dynamics, excellent cond. 1 $28,000
Amek Mozart 56x24 ALL NEVES!! SuperTrue, Dynamics, Recapped 1 $49,500
Amek Mozart 24x24x24, (16)Neves, SuperTrue Automation 1 $25,000
Amek Rembrandt 56x24 (24)RN's, SuperTrue, Dynamics, TR, 1997 1 $75,000
Amek TAC Scorpion 40x8x2 with matrix, 2 power supplys.flight case 1 $3,400
DDA DMR12 56x12 excellent condition, TT patch bay, just serviced! 1 $7,500
Harrison Series 12, 48 Channel/192 Input Digital Series, 2 years old 1 $135,000
Harrison Series-12, 80 input post production console-1994-One Owner 1 $58,000
Helios 32 frame, 30x24x24 - click for details 1 $129,500
Mackie SR-24.4 with road case, manual, very good condition 1 $650
MTA Series 980 32x24x24 with Uptown moving fader automation, 1996 1 $45,000
Neve 5316 24x8, 33115 pre/eq's, Uptown 990 auto, patch & cabling 1 $39,500
Neve 8048 (32)1081's, (4)2254 compressors, remote 1/4" patch 1 $145,000
Neve 8048 32(1095 eq's)x16x24, GML(Mac) - pristine condition 1 $275,000
Neve VR48 GML auto with MAC, needs recapping 1 $45,000
Neve VR72 w/FF, Recall, remote patch, and Musgrave modules 1 $75,000
Otrai CHANNEL STRIP from Concept I with VCA automation 6 $250
Otari Concept I 32 frame, 24 channels(48 inputs) VCA auto, excellent 1 $8,880
Rane MLM82 8x2, 1u rackmount mixer, works perfectly, quiet! 1 $250
Ramsa WRT-820 20x8 1 $900
Sony MXP3036 (12) pre's, good condition, spares 1 $7,800
Sony Oxford OXF-R3 24 channels, 96 inputs - MINT!--click for details 1 $137,500
Sony MXP-2016 12x2, (4)comp/limiters, patch bays - great front end! 1 $3,300
Soundcraft 600 24x8x16 with Factory Patch Bay 1 $6,000
Soundcraft DLX-8 8x4 rackmount, all stereo inputs - new/never used 1 $1,250
Soundcraft Ghost LE 32x8 one owner, 1998, good condition 1 $3,000
Soundcraft Ghost 24x8 w/MB, auto, stand, custom PS 50ft cable 1 $5,000
Soundcraft Series 5 48 mono and 8 stereo, 5 yrs old, Mint condition 1 $38,500
Soundcraft Spirit LX7 32 channel with original box, manual, 2 yrs old 1 $1,350
Soundcraft TS24 40x24, Recapped in 2/04, excellent condition 1 $12,000
Soundtracs Jade 48x24 Automation, Dynamics, home studio, 1998 1 $24,000
SSL 4072G, G+ center, TR, RH patch, Plasma meters - in service 1 $125,000
SSL 4100 G+ Series 100 inputs, with Ultimation, Vu's, used for 3 yrs 1 $179,000
SSL 6056E 56E mono, E242 EQ's, TR, LH patch, fully serviced!! 1 $65,000
SSL 9072-J loaded 72, 1998, remote patch 1 $265,000
SSL 9080-J loaded 80, 1997, remote patch, wired for surround 1 $300,000
Studiomaster Mixdown Gold 16x8x16, one owner, excellent condition 1 $1,200
Teac Model 15 24x8x16, patch bay, 1986 - excellent condition 1 $1,295
Trident Vector 432 58x32, (40)moving faders, (16)dynamics, patch, Vu's 1 $24,000
Yamaha 02R with (2) extra CD8AD cards for 40 analog inputs! 1 $1,995
Yamaha 02R ver2 (3)AES, (1)Unity, (2)ADAT & (1)TDIF card, meters 1 $2,150
Yamaha PM4000-40, 2 power supplies & 4 replacement modules, MINT 1 $28,000
ZAP Fred Hill custom 16x4x16, 1/4" patch, excellent condition 1 $11,900

Gotta wonder how many hundreds of thousands of GREAT recordings have been made using the non-API/Neve boards listed above.

anonymous Fri, 05/13/2005 - 11:18

looks looks looks? why? cos that's what the guy who's coming up with the money for this studio wants. i really don't want a digital desk, i'm not saying all analog desks are cheap compromises obviously, i'm asking whether desks at the $15k price point are cheap compromises and will do me no better than in the box mixing. the guy with the cash wants an impressive looking desk, i want an impressive sounding studio. even though if it was my investment, i'd personally stay digital unless i could afford a neve/ssl/api, it's not my investment, so i'm looking for a desk that will keep us both happy. thanks Midlandmorgan, that info is very helpful.

in what order would you guys rate the following brands (if you want to be model specific, so much the better!)

neve, ssl, api, mci, amek, otari, trident, mta, harrison, tac, soundcraft, soundworkshop, allen & heath, anything else

thanks everyone!

(by the way, get over the gay thing)

KurtFoster Fri, 05/13/2005 - 14:57

Yes, I know Randy Blevins ... I have done a load of business with him.

The TAC Scorpion, Mackies, CADs, AMEK Mozart, Harrisons (more for film and TV), and Langleys are either crappy sounding or antiques (arms auto? com'mon) ... the MCIs sound wonderful but are maintenance hogs, (I know, I owned a 636 and the 500 and 400's are even worse). I have never been very fond of the Soundcraft mixers .... even the large framed ones. The Sound Workshops are ok but have limited features and service is an issue ... The Tridents mentioned would be worth a look. The rest on that list are semi pro and not what he's looking for except for the old Sony 3036's ... those sound pretty good but like the Tridents, still are outdated in terms of automation and system control.

Blevins has more consoles in stock now than ever and why do you think all those consoles are up for sale? Because they are outdated ....

I love analog sound as much as the next guy ... and I do lament it's passing. But sometimes ya' gotta look up and read the writing on the wall.

frob Fri, 05/13/2005 - 15:17

there are ways to get as analouge mixdown summer with a digital desk (which would be cheaper) so get thouse pres and a big shiny digital desk or controler with a bunch of knobs, faders and blinking lights, and dont forget that long strip of vu meters. top run your DAW then you will have sound and the clients.

the first time client will come in and say "wow, look at all thoughs knobs and meters, i bet he uses them all, all the time."

Midlandmorgan Fri, 05/13/2005 - 16:12

OK Kurt, we can agree on a few things after all...the era of the big desk is nearly over, and most remnants are fossilizing pretty quickly...

I will argue regarding Harrisons...used a few and they were IMO non-intrusive, meaning they did not force a certain character on everything...whether that's a good or bad thing is up to the individual user...Mackies are usually as bad as people want them to be...etc...

That was not the point of my post, though...my post was to show that there are good units out there for far less than what you quoted....it took me two seconds to come up with that list...I'm sure that if someone invested a couple of hours, they would find a KILLER board at a KILLER price...

KurtFoster Sat, 05/14/2005 - 11:03

I am saying, what I consider to be a good board is (1) going to cost much more than $15,000 or (2) is going to be so old and in need of constant maintenance, that in the long run it's gonna kill you.

The Soundtracs, and other less expensive tabletop mixers really aren't what you say you want. If you want real fat analog .... you're gonna need an 800 lb. behemoth.

Midlandmorgan,
Yes the Harrisons are good boards .... however they are / were mostly used in AV and film apps .... not really considered a production console. I can't say what the upkeep is like but I would at least consider the availability of parts before purchasing. Tech time can run $60 per hr. or even more and these guys usually charge drive time as well .... You really don't want to get into a big board unless you have customer service support, can afford an onsite tech or you know how to perform maintenance yourself.

When I had my MCI 636, I was spending close to $300 a month in parts and tech fees, to keep it in top running order. If you are doing a lot of business and cash flow isn't an issue, that's fine but if you are working by yourself or business gets slow, this can be the difference between sink or swim. Just be careful what you wish for, you might get it!

frob Sat, 05/14/2005 - 14:10

i have seen summing mixers with no pre, eq tranx caps or anything a compleatly passive summing mixxer but i cant remmember the name of it or where i saw it but it summer 24 chanels to 2 and fit in a 1ru space. i wish i could remmeber what it was called. but i just read my post and i didnt say anything about "no analouge eq" all my point is this. if you want the wow factor from your clients all you need is to things some shinny lights knobs, faders and vu meters and to preform, in the service industry (thats what this is) i dosent matter as mutch that you have the newest greatest thing as i matters that you get the job done right and make the client feel as though your services are worth the money paid.

anonymous Sun, 05/15/2005 - 18:34

well frob, i wish it was that simple, because i would have been happy enough to do in the box mixes with a tascam us2400 or some mackie control stuff to look cool for the clients/feel cool for me, but the guy financing the studio has his heart set on a big old desk, and $15k is the budget before we start compromising the other gear. i'm willing to concede the outboard mic pres if the pres in the desk are up to scratch, but i'm certainly not replacing dpa's, Neumanns, brauners & royers with rodes, studio projects etc. that's what i'll have to do if the desk is over $15k, so my position is a tricky one. maybe i should just let him get the soundtracs solitaire. from a quick google search, they tend to sell for more than the $5000 i saw one for. that way we can still get most of the cool outboard mic pres

frob Mon, 05/16/2005 - 12:39

thats a shame. i just saw a studio go under down round here, they had two and a half studios full of gear and only one operating studio. in the operating studio they had a PT control24 and 4 888. in there other studio they had trident desk. lots of initial wow factor when i auditioned my band there, then mutch dismay when i noticed no out board pres, and they the studio whent under before we got our recording back from the engineer(a suposed friend of ours)

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