I'm probably not the guy to listen to, because your style isn't really my thang... however, drums sound FAR too compressed to me.

I've heard other mixes by other bands in similar genres - bands like Disturbed, for example - and their drums are far more open, live and dynamic. A/B your drums against this and see if you can't hear what I'm referring to....

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]Disturbed - Down With The Sickness [Music Video] - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Disturbed - Down With The Sickness [Music Video] - YouTube[/]

Can you hear how open and yet still driving the drum tracks are? There's no reason you can't get the same - or close to the same - results.

You've got yours squashed to the point of them losing power and definition. Now, I don't think this is all because of a master 2-bus limiter. My guess... and I could be wrong, is that you also strapped a limiter to the drum tracks as well? Either that or a HEAVY amount of gain reduction bordering on limiter settings...

This may in fact be the sound you are after, and if that's the case, then that's fine. But just because your music is hardcore doesn't mean it can't still breathe and have an open vibe to it.

Put it this way... if you were to go see a band live, and the drums sounded as thin and squashed as the ones on your track, would you be happy?

If the answer to that is yes, then my part in this conversation is over. You've done what you set out to do.

But... and this is just me speaking as an engineer... I think you need to go back to your rhythm tracks and revisit the gain reduction, because you've got far too much of it....open those bad boys up, let ' em breathe and knock the listener on their ass. ;)

in my humble opinion, of course.

-d.

Thanks for that. I am definitely after a much tighter sound than Disturbed etc but certainly open too the idea So I will give that a go. My main problem is the guitars as I find they sound a bit "brittle" for lack of a better description. Maybe more open feeling drums will leave me with better sounds to work the guitars around.....lets find out ;)

Soooo, I have removed a fair bit of compression on the drums but they seem a lot more muddy relatively now. Might need to Eq them a touch more but taking ages and im knacked haha. I will do a bit of work and pot up a new mix to see what you think further. Hopefully by tomorrow when my ears don't feel battered Thanks loads for the help!

Louis

Nice to hear from you LJ25!

Excellent example Donny,
I've nothing to add here, just to support what Donny already said but once again look at the monitoring... .

Louis, Man, you have a killer track here but the drums and bottom end sound like tooth picks. I'm wondering if you are listening ( monitoring) on really bassy speakers which is giving people a false exaggeration in the low end? What speakers are you monitoring with? Tell us what you are using and your room?

Listening to this in my studio, all I hear is tick tick for the kick. There is nothing worth mentioning below 300.

audiokid, post: 398669 wrote: Nice to hear from you LJ25!

Louis, Man, you have a killer track here but the drums and bottom end sound like tooth picks. I'm wondering if you are listening ( monitoring) on really bassy speakers which is giving people a false exaggeration in the low end? What speakers are you monitoring with? Tell us what you are using and your room?

Listening to this in my studio, all I hear is tick tick for the kick. There is nothing worth mentioning below 300.

Yup. Me too.

Monitoring through speakers that have exagerrated bass built in, ( home stereo speakers are notorious for this) or mixing in a room where you have serious standing waves of low end will cause your mixes to be very bass shy when played back on more accurate systems.

I guess what Chris and I are saying is it may not be you... it may be that you are being lied to in a major way when it comes to your low end. If your room or your speakers are presenting you with low end that isn't really there, you'll naturally compensate by attenuating the low end when you don't need to. This will cause the lack of freq's below 300hz that Chris mentioned.

Are you by chance mixing with a powered sub? Curious....

FWIW

Haha. I think you have both hit the nail on the head there. I mix in my livingroom with Yamaha HS50 monitors and a matched sub. To be fair, its a solid wood floor and the only thing in the room that will be treating the sound will be my sofa which im sat on opposite my monitors. I try to mix using other songs as reference but clearly this is not working. Any suggestions on what to do in that case? Throw up some acoustic padding on the walls? (by that i mean putting blankets everywhere!)

Blankets are not gonna do much for the frequencies that are giving you problems.

What you need to control that low end is mass, and yes, while things like upholstered couches and chairs can tame those lows to an extent, I don't believe they would anywhere near to the extent that you need.

Low frequency traps would, of course, be your answer, of varying frequency absorption, but the pro commercial stuff isn't cheap... and while you can certainly build your own, if you are also using cheap speakers to mix through, well, you're probably into a lot more money and a lot more time before you'd like to get your final product out.

Ya know, at this point, and I gotta say this with some hesitancy because I don't recommend this often, but in your case and at this point, you might be better off to use headphones, considering the circumstances...

This would certainly be the cheap and easiest way to at least get you closer to any semblance of accuracy, but, it's not gonna really be the long term answer for you.

If you do go the HP route, don't just use any cheap pair, because like home stereo speakers, there are many consumer grade headphones that, like home stereo speakers, are also designed to accentuate those low frequencies, and you could be right back where you started from.

You'll need to use good headphones, something with a relatively flat frequency response. Audio Technica, Shure, AKG and a slew of other manufacturers all make decent cans that are relatively transparent and won't cost you a second mortgage.

Personally, I use Audio Technica MF series. I don't use them to mix, but I do use them to occasionally check mix imaging and multi playback translation, and I think they are probably flat enough for you to use in a dicey situation such as yours, where I feel that any other method of reference and environmental frequency response will be better than the one you have now.

A final note....if you do decide to continue to mix through speakers, dump the sub.

Subs are fine to reference a mix after the fact, but very few pros actually use them during critical mixing applications, even in rooms that are highly accurate and tuned... in your case, mixing with a sub will bring you nothing but trouble, because you're adding more low end mush to a room that is already loaded with low end mush.

And, sit as close to your monitors as possible, which will at least alleviate some of the reflections you are dealing with. Also, if you can, try to get your listening location as close to the center of the room as possible. Don't shove your self into a corner or up against a wall.

Again, all these suggestions are really just band aids on a traumatic wound, so you need to accept the fact that in your current situation, you're only ever gonna get "so-so" good, sonically, if that.

In my humble opinion, of course.

-d.

haha. Ok. Well I have removed the sub totally now and been mixing a bit on the fly as you have been giving me advice. Wasnt going to till tomorrow but when in the mood...im in the mood! Will do a mixdown soon as im content and bang a link up. See if you think iv made any forward progress. Cheers loads of this both of you! Been really helpful!

Ya! We helped this dude in a major way.

I'm with my colleague with the phones too, but even better... Take the subs off or at least turn them waaaay down! I bought "one" sub last year and that was enough for me to know it sucks for mixing. Two subs is way too much for mixing in an untreated room and my room is treated.
Plus, you need to make sure they are matched right to the db. No humps or dips where they cross-over. All you are doing is creating mass low end standing waves and messing your punch.

Buy some powered Near Fields ASAP. They are cheap. Check out Audix even. They have little guys ( $250.00) idea for someone on a budget or needing a remote rig. I'm ordering their 3/12 in as soon as I get my act together here. I want small. Small rocks. Anything will be better than what you are doing now.

Advice: Don't be mixing pro audio loud and boomy. Thats for fun. Pro's don't mix loud and boomy. You are going to love us.
So... Go out and bottle drive, find the money. Turn them off if you can at least. And, use the headphone for now if thats the only solution. Once your mix sounds good in the phones, check it out on your home system and you will be shocked how bassy it is. then, adjust the subs to sound closer to the phones, if you must continue using them. This way they will at least be tuned closer.

EDIT, I posted this without seeing your last one here, Glad to see you are doing this!
Keep us posted.

Scrap that! My ears are ruined for the night and I couldnt tell you if a kick drum is a snre or not right now! Onwards! Speak soon.

ROTF

Yup, that's what happens. Cheers!

Absolutely.

Know when to walk away.

The big problem with doing what you are doing - in that you are acting as writer (I assume) arranger, performer, engineer, producer, remix engineer, etc, is that you are wearing all the hats... and brother, those hats can get mighty cumbersome if you wear enough of them long enough.

You start to lose objectivity - at this point I'd say you have probably lost it entirely....because you've heard this track sooo many times, constantly rewinding, playing back, rewinding again, tweaking, etc. - you have reached the point of aural fatigue... actually, I'd venture to say that you already passed that particular mile marker some time ago, and now you're just in complete burn-out mode.

Adding to all of that is the fact that is already obvious - in that you are endlessly chasing your tail because of your inferior room and monitoring rig, and, well, it's kinda like trying to get cats to all walk together in a parade.

You need to step away from this for awhile, and I'm not talking about just a few hours, but possibly a few days.

Take heart, we've all faced it at one time or another. You're certainly not alone... not by a long shot.

fwiw

-d.

Haha, yes you are right. I tried to have another go at this last night but after 20 minutes I was just hitting my head off the table. So my plan is to spend this week with the rest of the band, rehearse for our shows next week and come back to it at the weekend. Then you can see my progress with fresh ears ;) speak soon.

i think theres a buildup of upper midrange, which could be from comb filtering in your listening room. the beater attack of the kick and guitars are right where they should be for this style, but the vocals have too much cut for my taste. it's not enhancing my ability to hear the words, rather making me not listen to them. you guys sound like that band 'all shall perish', i like the riffs and stuff, but the vocals sound harsh to me. if you have to adjust that snare/gtr eqs to get a fuller vocal sound thats fine, cuz it's a peircring, almost small type sound on vocs. very focussed.

ease up on the 2-bus man. i know comercial recordings get away w/ obvious digital distortion right now, but, still. things become less huge at a certian point. it's like the 80s use of ecessive reverb, tone it down a bit, you'll get a bigger version.

i also question the mic. was it a condenser? they're not neccessary, especially in metal. i have very good luck w/ a Sennheiser 441 for gritty voices. my personal approach to hardcore music is that the vocal needs to be smooth, because he/she is going apeshit. thats the magic, people going insane, but the presentation of that needs to be acceptable. so yeah its awesome to hear someone screaming there brains out, but smooth is the word. i'm not talking r&b smooth, but when metal dudes let loose it's a lot of high and upper mids because of how humans are made. vocal chords just vibrate more frequently in the upper range, and screamers just usually get harsh. i want to hear a more full version of the vocals, not just the cut.

cool stuff man overall. lets her those tweaks!

I really think there is a limit as to how loud you can make something sound when it is only a single volume level throughout? There is nothing to compare the loudness to? I thought it was perfectly wonderful sounding. I thought it said what it was supposed to say as a death metal recording? I could hear all the instruments very clearly. Great articulation. One big wall of sound. And that daemonic vocal was always there yeah. What's there to fix? Everybody listens on different systems so everybody is going to hear it differently. I'm hearing the whole picture. It's good. Leave it alone. You are dismayed and confused because you've hit the pinnacle. There isn't anywhere else to go. You did good kid.

What's everybody talking about? This is rock 'n roll isn't it?
Mx. Remy Ann David

Kmetal. Cheers for the input! I was going to post another mix up here during the week but been a bit preoccupied getting ready for a few gigs so not had time. Yeah the vocal points are something thats been mentioned so maybe we will try the Audix dynamic we have next time instead. Give it more body rather than highs.

Remy, thanks loads for that! Really nice to hear. Just wanted my guitars sounding more ballsy but you are making me feel pretty good about that. Especially considering they came straight from the DI of my amp! Albeit a very nice amp...but DI'd guitars rarely sound as natural as a celestion V30 with a sm57 right up to it! ;)

Man, I couldn't disagree more on this one in a whole year of eating Wheaties on crack lol. LJ25's track is severely lacking bottom end. It sounds like toothpicks at my chair. Where is the kick and bass low end? All I hear is 3k tick tick tick and upper mid dominant. Which points to bad acoustics from a mixing POV. But... . maybe we need to check our monitors here or catch up on what speed metal sounds like.
But then I hear other tracks I much prefer so whats up with that?

Even though this is the internet, the bottom end of LJ25's track should be closer to this to my ears:
What better way to describe something than providing a reference. This is what I call a better reference (listen past the compressed online that it is). Whether we can accomplish this or not is another question but there is clearly a low end problem that is making him think he needs more upper mids..

[="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cmefZ8aeZ8"]Judas Priest - You've Got Another Thing Comin' [LIVE 2005] - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Judas Priest - You've Got Another Thing Comin' [LIVE 2005] - YouTube[/]
[[url=http://="http://www.youtube…"]Justice! ~ Speed Metal 1 - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Justice! ~ Speed Metal 1 - YouTube[/]
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]Ten Best Thrash - Speed Metal Album of The WORLD - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Ten Best Thrash - Speed Metal Album of The WORLD - YouTube[/]

But, Maybe I missing something here and could use some enlightenment on this style. In all honesty I ask: Is LJ25's style of music supposed to be bottom end weak? Possibly to handle the 16th on kicks from timing out? Maybe everyone here uses subs for mixing?
Most monitoring systems and rooms with music like this cranked might not be able to recover and handle low end coming at it like that but if it were me, I'd still be looking for more meat, less pudding.

If everyone is wearing dark shaded glasses, we're obviously not going to be mixing dark and agreeing. We're going to be trying to see clearer and turning on bright lights. But then, what happens when someone walks into the room without dark glasses and is blinded by the light.

LJ25's ROOM = bad monitoring and dark distorted glasses ( subs and low energy standing waves).

I'm starting to think there is an even bigger problem with our rooms and monitoring systems than we ever imagined. I've been following what members like, keeping a mental picture and noticing something.
How can we all be hearing things so different. I ask myself, If we were all mixing in the same room, would we arrive at similar mixes or critique someone closer? We need to have an in depth discussion on this. I've PM Rod. Hopefully we can turn this into a really positive turning point that is plaguing the internet engineering communities, thus effecting even how manufactures products are being reviewed.

modern metal can have similar bottom end to hip hop and and dance. which is a bit exaggerated, but pretty cool when done right, live and on disc. the reason for the excessive buildup in the mid range is trying to get the clatiry, and attack thru. the kick (click drum) can't compete w/ the space that down tuned guitars/basses generate, so it gets left with the 10k attack that the sample offers.

i thought the balance of this mix was overall was well done, i just thought the vocal was peiceing. high pitched screamers don't need boosts in the mid-highs, but you certainly don't have much room in the low mids to add either.

my gripe w/ the limiting isn't so much the power of force, is the crackly distortion, and lack of push-push-pull on the head banging parts. it is rock and roll and this mix sounds good, but i'm very picky about vocal tones, cuz that's the criticisms, 'oh that guys are just screaming' 'i can't hear his words'. stuff like that is what people will say all day. like any other style, vocal technique is first. there is a video called 'the zen of screaming' where a professional vocal coach helps trains some of modern metals big time vox, and shows them stuff so they can scream and yell, night after night, w/ out surgery.

i also blame sampling/amp sims big time for modern metal. nobody said it had to sound smooth, or high fi. the early 90's was the end of that era, of 'not horrible' recordings, that sounded like the band. imho, your should be able to zero in on any element of the hardcore mix, and just have it 'not hurt, or be too harsh'. i will use drum sampling all day if someone wants the sound. usually compression isnt enough to keep the concrete kick drum the trends are asking for. i'll tell ya sound wise, the sweeds kill it on metal, from bodem, to arch enemy, to soilwork, that stuff is a pretty very good attempt at pop/dance type range, w/ aggressive drums/guitars/vocals. i like it better than slayers sound of the past 15 years.

this song always caught my ear, even tho it's pretty dated, and radio people actually cut the buildup intro, ugh. but listen to how a screechy vocalist was tamed and yet help up front. i say it's a pluggin, and i'd commit on transformer saturation, but, watever, it's a screechy vocalist sounding reasonable. still a bit too much, on the u tube but, an example.

this sound bangs out, but is already dated. it's inhumanly tight. but one of the better albums i've heard in metal during the last decade. ugh i said decade.

yes dynamic mics for extreme vocals. rappers too. sm 58's, re 20, sm 7, 441. audix makes good stuff it'l probably work just fine.

fwiw my 'listening room' is a laptop w/ some 2" wedge foam on the reflection points (7.5/11.5/26 ft. rough) and it has a staircase, it's a typical ranch basement. speakers are mackie hr8mk2's, which are hooked up to the cpu, and a bose surround system, for my cable/xbox. my studio, it needs some (alot) work acoustically, i really need to learn what a reliable testing process is, in an 'already built' situation where modification is the only possible action, re-build out of question. with so many different rooms, it'd be cool to have even just a 'reasonable' base for testing, and comparison.

so, are we gonna all try to test our room as similarly as possible? i'd be down for some friendly comparisons. it'd sure help me out.

Just before we all go running to listen to Children of Bodem...it's not really the sound we are aiming for. I suggest using this as more of a reference please :) Also, I WILL get round to doing some mixing this week haha. Maybe even tonight! haha. Cheers again for everyone's input!

modern metal w/screamo, and harmonies. i think that chimaira link was fine as a reference sonically. your boys in this link over-edit the chunk parts. it's to the grid. thats so dated, and not done to taste. cool hyper editing on the harmony gtrs, nice production move, it is nice.

bands don't sound that 'tight' 'gated' or 'cut-off' on chunky parts. they sound like they couldn't be close enough, from an engineers pov. that breakdown has no life, just grid based timing/editing. dude, you like aggressive stuff, there is all kinds of squeakes, and even better, harmonics that happen on those guitar riffs, that helps it be cool. put it this way, if any fan goes to see this band live, they are going to hear that. when the band made that song, they heard those parts of heir movements. is it ok again to not be perfect in metal?

maybe it's cuz i was a skateboarder in the 90's just jammin to things w/out a click.

you can sound artificial like that band if you have any DAW. they sound like a preset. no good man.

is it real hardcore to edit to the grid lol? really. lets hear it. (edit) blues, r&b,funk? i'm questioning hyper-editing's relavance. thinking maybe since everyone can quantize, people of concern question what people are playing/offering. ?

pantera did ok w/ vibe vs edit on the production side. the band 'death' who;s mastermind was chuck schuldiner, defined late 80's death metal, it's pretty smoothly edited. these cats are going crazy!! clean editing, and they can do it live.

performance based recrdings are still relavent, genre as is.?

LJ25, post: 399025 wrote: Just before we all go running to listen to Children of Bodem...it's not really the sound we are aiming for. I suggest using this as more of a reference please :) Also, I WILL get round to doing some mixing this week haha. Maybe even tonight! haha. Cheers again for everyone's input!

Well you should be listening for low freq here. Its going right over your head. My reference is not to compare you to Children of Bodem , it is about giving a reference to what bottom end should sound like with a similar drum pattern. This is about sound, not songs. If you don't want to sound like tooth picks, try and hear what you are missing. But this won't accurately even happen anyway because of your room and monitors. You are doomed until you fix your problem.

Your example works too. :)

Good luck!

Yeah with that in mind you are right. I have really struggled to get this song to how I want it but have been working on a different demo recording (we promised it to our followers). I have used all the same gear but started from scratch taking into account all mixing pointers given on here. Bass guitar going down tonight and vocals later in the week. I have removed the sub for mixing in this instance. Similar style of song as I am sure you can appreciate. Will post the results asap. Just getting frustrated with the original one now haha.

Thats some cool stuff guys!

BTW: where did the drum track come from? did you record it yourself? how many tracks are in your drum mix? Could you post a totally dry Sum mix of just the drum tracks? NO EQ's, NO Comp., NO Nothin on IT! Remove any master bus limiting too.

thumb

Righty, I decided to start at the source and seeing as we promised another track to our followers I thought it may be better to use this as a track instead. I have listened to all the comments so far in this. I kept all my set up identical to the 1st track but here I used a dynamic Audix om7 mic for vocals. I have worked heavily on the low end referencing from a few of the tracks listed on here. Seems to have cleaned up the sound significantly and appears much louder. Another thing I did from the source is drop every track volume once recorded so I had more headroom to play with. Seems much better for limiting the whole mix later on. Id appreciate the usual feedback.

Jackmeriustacktheratrix - Cheers! The drums I use are triggered. I cant get a decent mic'd up sound with my gear so I use a a midi input from each drum into Toontrack EZ Drummer and the metal machine EZX pack (as this has the same drum set up as my drummer and sounds very very similar). However, it is his performance you are hearing (with a touch of editing). Albeit, the sound of each of his drum heads triggering the appropriate sample. - I'm out on tour this weekend so I will send you the totally raw track of the drums when i'm back next week if you still want it. :)

It has less to do with mixing and really to do with weak drum samples. I say go and mix the thing with all raw drum files!! I know that you are into the triggering of midi files but this seems to be why so many have complained over low end in the mix. The samples are not able to be mixed in way that will ever sound great. To me these midi triggers sound really forced and as good as a realistic drum machine but that is it. I do not hate... I am here to point out that EZ Drummer is not cutting it!! Close mic drumming is an art form that Genesis really hit upon, but this is not doing it for me. I really liked Genesis from the 70's anyway when they were a total crazy machine of progressiveness. I hope you hear me here... Get those other samples and try them out, but still I think EZ Drummer is just not working out effectively. Spend your money on BFD or something if your gonna go that route. Even then I really have to point out that triggering drum midi files is the easier way out. That is until you sound like every other person with that same set of samples out there... You have nothing left to lose and everything to gain to display the raw drums before they are triggered. (WE) or should I say (I) would love to hear what those drums can sound like mixed raw without EZ drummer. At least then you might give them a chance to capture the drummer for what he is worth.

Dr. Gonz is making a good point about the quality of the sample itself. This is one reason I wanted to hear the drums solo'd out. It would help us gather information that is specific to the problem we are ALL hearing. I will tell you this that EZ drummer is not failing you. You may not have it dialed in yet. Over the past 5 years I have rarely mixed a record that doesn't have sampled drums. Your process sounds right. You may need to pick better samples. The only real Kick drum information being articulated is the 1K-3K freq's. I know you can hear the Low end ok overall because I hear your Bass Guitar very clearly. Find a Happy Marriage between your Kick and Bass Guitar on the Low side of things.

See if this makes sense: Right now it's kind of like I am listening to all your guitar information on an FM station, and the Drums on a AM mono station.

I know all this talk has been concentrated on the Kick and it's important but the most glaring thing to me is where your snare sits and it's EQ problems. The sample sounds like it could be nice. Throw that thing in MY FACE. Spend a lot of time EQ'ing the snare. To me the snare is the most critical piece of the mix. It is the true energy.

I really like the song bro. It's very fun to listen to. I even played a sweet Drop C air guitar rift while listening :cool:.

the dynamic definately is less harsh than the previous mic choice. FWIW i've used drummagog w/ the steven slate drums expansion pack for metal. cool stuff man, you guys are heavy as s--t!

jack are you sure your problem w/ the snare isn't the reverb, rather than eq? what are you thinking eq-wise would bring such a roomy sounding snare more in your face? not trying to be insulting, just friendly conversation. cheers!

Spend your money on [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.fxpansio…"]BFD[/]="http://www.fxpansio…"]BFD[/] or something if your gonna go that route. Even then I really have to point out that triggering drum midi files is the easier way out. That is until you sound like every other person with that same set of samples out there...

I'm a fan of BFD and yet, I still don't think it's gonna cut the mustard in this scenario.

I also agree with Gonz about the fact that seemingly everyone is using these samples these days, and that does add a sense of generic sound and feel.

Back in the 90's, it was the Alesis D4/D5, and for awhile there, it seemed like the D4/5 snare patch "Fat City Snare" was heard all over every power ballad released at that time LOL.

If I were you, I'd mic up a real kit, set up a nice overhead XY array, and track real drums. But, that's just my opinion, of course.

Kmetal - No insult taken. It's a great question. I admit I was being very general, my point was meant to be a tip not and explaination of how to get there. I talked about two problems with the snare:
1. where it sits in the mix, and 2. the eq

The EQ will not help with where it sits in the mix but it will translate to a percieved energy.
The reverb will definitely play with where it sits.

So my comment was "Throw it in my face", meaning figure out how to sit it subtley on top of the mix. that will nost likely translate to cutting verb and boosting transients and the low mid harmonics. Also if you are not using "copy tracks" stacked you are missing out. Also in the world of samples using multiple sample tracks for snare and kick help a ton. BFD is great, Drumagog is Great, I am partial to superior drummer.

I personally wouldn't suggest rerecording drums. Especially if he doesn't have the set up to do it. There is a reason we pay good money to build ISO rooms or rent them if you don't have access to one. Another thought is, if you can't get sampled drums to sound good then I can't imagine you will get a good sound from a live recording.

just my two cents

jackmeriustacktheratrix, post: 399277 wrote: Kmetal - No insult taken. It's a great question. I admit I was being very general, my point was meant to be a tip not and explaination of how to get there. I talked about two problems with the snare:
1. where it sits in the mix, and 2. the eq

The EQ will not help with where it sits in the mix but it will translate to a percieved energy.
The reverb will definitely play with where it sits.

So my comment was "Throw it in my face", meaning figure out how to sit it subtley on top of the mix. that will nost likely translate to cutting verb and boosting transients and the low mid harmonics. Also if you are not using "copy tracks" stacked you are missing out. Also in the world of samples using multiple sample tracks for snare and kick help a ton. BFD is great, Drumagog is Great, I am partial to superior drummer.

I personally wouldn't suggest rerecording drums. Especially if he doesn't have the set up to do it. There is a reason we pay good money to build ISO rooms or rent them if you don't have access to one. Another thought is, if you can't get sampled drums to sound good then I can't imagine you will get a good sound from a live recording.

just my two cents

I like this guy, he's thinking along the same lines as me! Right on seeing all you guys chiming in on this one.

jack-cool thanks for re-iterating what you were saying, in forums like these, i wouldn't be surprised if somebody out there suggested to approach spatial issues, w/ eq lol.

in addition to a certain level of quality, samples offer a high level of consistency, which is so vital. there are some metal drummers i've heard who can fire off the 16th's on the kick very consitenly, w/ no samples. unfortunately these drummers are few an far between. more often than not i've found the faster the notes in a row, the lighter they hit. so samples are a saving grace for me in that respect. drummagogg has a cool blend feature were you can kanda layer in the sample, if your sounds are good, more consistency is needed, i'm dunno if bfd or superior drummer has this feature or not.

unless your going for a real trashy sounds, which the OP obviosly isn't, i think it'd be pretty tough to get a convincing sound w/out a great kit, room, and drummer. if he has that tho, i'd love to hear a real kit on a metal record, that isn't from 1987. IMHO it be refreshing. cheers!

Nothing like the 80's for gawd sake. Take me back! But, the Bricasti M7 is amazing.

Unfortunately. Recording with a totally natural sound is just not an option for me when it comes to drums. I simply don't have the quality of gear required to get a good sound out of them no matter how tight the performance and how good the heads are or how well tuned each shell is. Basically I have a naff room and terrible cheap mics which were bought for playing DIY gigs for when we started out and the sound guys generally didn't know what I DI was. Incidentally I have tried with drumagog but my PC is lacking in power to cope with it on so many channels at once.

Incidentally the samples I am using are currently heard on a number of recordings currently heard in the mainstream so I am convinced it's more my mixing than the sample quality. For example [="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Townsend"]Devin Townsend[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Devin Townsend[/]'s 2007 concept album [[url=http://="http://en.wikipedia…"]Ziltoid the Omniscient[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Ziltoid the Omniscient[/] and [="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshuggah"]Meshuggah[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Meshuggah[/]'s album [[url=http://="http://en.wikipedia…"]Catch Thirtythree[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Catch Thirtythree[/] both used this program and these samples.

Perhaps I need to look at making my drums sound even better before layering my guitars, bass and vocals on them. Interesting point made on reverbs there.....this is something I have always struggled with. Can you give me some pointers there? :) Maybe that will start helping this click together a bit better.

with reverbs on tight drums, i tend to turn it up till i can 'hear' it, and then kick it back a notch or two. it's one of those things that's kind of subliminal. like if you take it off the drums will sound more sterile, but you can't necessarily hear the verb itself. remember tho, that the drums are going to define acoustic space more than any other instrument so it's not that ambiance is a bad thing, even in metal.

anotherthing you will wanna mess w/ is the pre-delay setting. this will allow you to define a room sound, while retaining the initial punch of the close mic'd drum/sample

bands like dying fetus have, extremely tight drums to the point where there is no audible room, and it sounds just about dry. they do this because that is the only way to retain definition and punch when doing blast beats, and one handed rolls, in conjunction w/ pummeling kick drums. if you listen to the old metallica, slayer, and death, you'll notice a much bigger boomier snare, that is lower in pitch, as well as a bigger room. part of this is because it was the 80's (lol audiokid), and big rooms were fashionable, but they remain punchy because of pre-delay, and the fact that they are playing slower. even cannibal corpse uses that big snare sound, but they use a drier room type because of the tempo. otherwise it sound it sounds 'washy' and 'distant', and lacks the punch so necessary in heavy music.

80's (lol audiokid)

Hey, what , ... what? smoke

Well, only if its needed or requested.
If I had a choice however, a string quartet makes me smile every time. But, I never took my eye too far off the ball all these years.

I'll take my new MPC Renaissance , use note repeat on 64th, , blast beat a dubstep kick down to 40hz and she isn't timing out if you leave room for it, set the decays and releases to fit the speed, finish it off with a glorious reverb or leave it dry at any millisecond, which ever way you want it, center, deep or wide. I'm not too big on kicks that fast but hey, this is not a problem.

Or, use transient to midi to replace one or all percussion parts in a song for effect, repair, bad acoustics, remix whatever. In this case, a kick of choice: Classic, Jazz, House, Metal, again, whatever fits. This will mirror one or the entire songs transients dynamically.
Transient to midi captures the performance as it was, just replaces the bad sound with better. Tune it to key, recreate the space and its done. The Bricasti M7 in the analog domain is amazing for that, room plug-ins lack compared. But they do work nicely for refection effects while combining an M7.
Sequoia 12 is amazing for this. In most cases 30 min and its done. The improvements can be better than you would ever imagine. Some like classic kits, some like 808's, some like huge, some like it thin. It all comes down to personal sonic taste at that point and a great ME to make it fit your sonic space.

Creating room ambiance, there are cheap tools or really good tools and tricks for that too. At least to help fix things that went bad in the real world, to only improve it all in a "good, better or best" footprint. Do you want it to sound ITB or OTB. As long as you know what you are doing of course, anything can be made to sound real or synthetic today, seamlessly. Its a sound designers world now. If you want.

And I say this againbecause we are in a recording studio forum, these options are here if needed or requested.
But If I had a choice , a string quartet makes me smile every time.

I'm on my 37th year doing this. It all started in the late 70's with Rodger Linn and New England Digital with their Synclavier. Although I don't like his music, Frank Zappa was on the cutting edge. That's how I learned about this all. I mean, this was my introduction into sound designing and amazing musicians working with technology.
Then New Wave and Midi came and Devo whipped it good!
The last 5 years have really improved to a point, its no joke anymore. Things are really going to change now. As we are all finding and wondering WTF is happening.

The last 10 years have been focused on making all this stuff work ( DAW's that is). They seem to have it down now and we can actually start getting serious again and making great music, better, sounding, whatever. Nothing I would love more than to spend my last days on this earth around a group of talented musicians. No tricks, just music. Just my Royer ribbons and the DPA kits for detail.

The www is actually catching up to speed so I'm hoping things get better for all of us.

:)

PS,

HD Midi is going to be discussed at NAMM this year. Its a matter of getting the big guys like Korg, Yamaha etc to get on the same page. Its huge music changing technology. check that out. You owe it to yourselves to see where the industry is headed and why its all changed.

Here is some history that is unstoppable. I blame so much on MTV. But, its the way its going and there is no stopping technology. We are human and human's find a reason for everything we do.

sorry, I got a bit off track...

back to the OP.

I like recording real drums because I can make them sound like sample drums LOL. That's what gates are all about and the EQ and the limiters. Recording real drums is really gratifying, challenging and I don't care how bad the surrounding acoustics are when it's rock 'n roll. So why should people be playing with software samples? Where is the art of recording going? You're not recording anything therefore it is no longer an art. It's a video game. And while video games can be fun, it does not involve real musicians and real instrumentation. I want excellence out of people not out of software. The software is nothing more than a finishing tool. Recording a snare drum difficult? No way. It's child's play. Top microphone, bottom microphones phase inverted, limiters and the gate. EQ to taste. Is it the snare drum you want to record? No? Then use a trigger to trigger your sample from your recorded snare drum. But if all you want to play with is software, go for it. I enjoy the art of actual recording of instruments and people. And along with people losing the ability to play with others because everything emanates from their bedroom in a solo fashion, where is the art going? Sure, Michelangelo probably didn't have statue carving interns fresh out of statue carving school? And that was a solo project. So some arts are so low in nature where others are ensemble oriented. Which is what we record. Ensembles beaded string quartets, full-blown symphonic and operatic productions or a simple four piece rock 'n roll band. Don't lose the art of what we do through playing video games. I mean that is the bleeding edge of the state of the art of the technical stuff. And it's good to get it under your belt for corrective uses. Relying upon only samples puts you in the category of the kids behind the counter at McDonald's. Which we all know is the pinnacle of culinary satisfaction right?

I only do McDonald's when I'm feeling cheap
Mx. Remy Ann David

Remy, Thanks for that. All I can think of having a big mac now! In all fairness. I would love to be able to record the drums fully live then mix slightly with samples to get the right blend but I just don't have the facility to hand. I have done it in the past and I am never happy with the results. Like I said, our drums aren't programmed, they are performed and sent through the midi input on our motu as triggers but I love the sound our snare and toms. Kick isn's the best sounding mind. We work with what we have available to and with the energy gained form the big mac you have inspired me to eat before tonights gig.....

LOL, yeah you should eat before your performance. You need that nonstop energy boost.

You absolutely have the proper equipment to make great drum recordings. That's when the multitrack software processing can really be played with and manipulated. You'll be able to gate the drums, compress them, EQ them. And it's that gating that will make all the difference in the world to turn your drum recordings into first-rate sounding sample like excellence. So the only thing in which you don't have, is the full knowledge of what your software can actually do for you without having to screw around with other ridiculous nonsense. If you catch my drift? All one needs is a few 57's, a Mackie or Behringer and whatever multitrack software package you have. It really couldn't be easier. You're making it more difficult. So I know you have the ability to deliver what I'm talking about. And when you get there, you may never want to look back at samples ever again? And I get that sound when the drummer is playing all of the drums at the same time. The isolation comes from the gates. It makes the drums fat and more musical. Let's use stick them where you want in your stereo sound field. No lookahead on those gates as you want the overhead microphones of the drums to pick up the initial transient that the gate will slightly up cut. And you want to gate to do that. Because you want the meat of that drum sound. And you have everything before you with which to do that with. So stop screwing around with samples. All you need are 57's. And you do want to sound on your recordings as you do in live performance. Samples are not representative of your current drum set. And your current drum set, regardless of how crappy, with proper gating, EQ and dynamic range compression/limiting, that crappy drum set won't sound crappy anymore. And this is what I have been doing since 1978.

I even had to bounce down drum tracks back then, since I only had 2 KEPEX 1's and 1 1176 limiter. So I would track all of the drums at once what the rest of the core rhythm section of the band. Then the bass drum would get EQ, limiting and gating. Then back again to process the snare drum, the tom-toms, bouncing to other tracks on the 16 track Ampex MM 1200. With mostly everything running at 15 IPS due to the extremely tight budgets of local bands. So by the time the mix came down, the drums were already 2 generations down, resulting in three generations down for the mix. And no noise problems because of those noise gates. This pertains to any kind of acoustical environment good or bad.

So while it's good that you are integrating these samples within your production workflow, you are missing the art of recording. And that which only really requires proper gain trim, microphone placement and that's about all. And then you work the magic in the software. That will make you a much more competent professional engineer. And you'll realize these drum samples are no big whoop. It's just other guys playing with their 57's, EQ, limiting and gating. And you can do that. You should do that. I have recorded some of the worst looking and sounding drum sets one could ever imagine. The smaller and crappy they were, the better they sounded.Those guys with the 24 inch bass drums rarely sound good in the studio, especially smaller studios. Because the low end has nowhere to go and cannot bloom in the acoustic space. So you have to tighten that 24 inch bass drum up for studio use. Even crappy snare drums sound good when you use this kind of processing upon them. And tom toms will sound less hollow. It's a win-win when you do it that way. Try it? You'll like it. You'll feel better about yourself and your capabilities. Come on now... you're a good engineer.

You can listen to any of the cuts on the five pages of my website crowmobile.com and you'll hear drum gating on each one of those five pages. None of these were recorded in a good acoustic environment in fact just the opposite. (You'll need Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 or newer or, Google Chrome on a desktop/laptop to hear these embedded live broadcast files). Everything mixed live was done as if it was a mix down of a multitrack recording. While also simultaneously rolling to the 24 track digital machine/machines. Yet none of it was ever remixed as there was no reason to do so. The 24 track masters were merely a backup. So this live mix down like scenario was accomplished within 30-60 seconds of the bands first number. Only the second cut which was the real funky number was a remix of an eight track live recording of a front yard/lawn at an NBC TV barbecue party. And most of those drum sets will sound like they are from a big sample library while they're not. So you can do this. I know you can. You can't make any excuses for not being able to do this as you can. You can do it! I want to hear you try? You want to learn how to do this better don't you? You've got folks like myself with multiple major music award nominations and 20 years at NBC television. So stop telling me what you can't do because you can. You've already got the mixing chops down. This is just the next natural progression you need to take. And you'll love doing it I guarantee it!

I'm waiting patiently and with bated breath (basically because I didn't brush my teeth this morning)
Mx. Remy Ann David