I'm building a new studio in my basement and have the option between having one big room for tracking and mixing or a separate smallish room for mixing and decent size room for tracking. What option would you guys do?
It would be nice to have a separate control room but for the space I have to work with, the control room width would only allow about one foot on
each sides of the monitors, even though there would be absorption at the reflective points, I would think it would be much better for mixing to have
the width be 18ft wide instead of 12ft wide, and the depth be 33ft instead of 18ft. Or will the uneven back of the room be a problem?
My budget? I work at a local hardware store one night a week to get discounts, so I can get a drywall for cheap and whatever else I need.
Right now I have about $3000 to start with but thats just for drywall, outlet box's, lighting, and whatever framing I'll need.
Labor wise, I've done drywall, framing, electricity many times, so It will be all DIY.
The current construction is a framed (but tangible) unfinished basement, cement floors, 10 ft ceilings in a large part of the space (measured from cement to bottom of trusses).
There are other erea where the heating ducts hang down to about 8ft. The wall that is in photo "B" is a main support wall for the house, so if I decided to not have that there I would
replace it with a wood ceiling beam that would hang down about 1 ft.
Option A "One Big Room"
[="http://s295.photobucket.com/user/ch-holt/media/SCAN0009.jpg.html"] 
[/]="http://s295.photobu…"] [/]
Option B "Separate Rooms"
[[url=http://="http://s295.photobu…"] 
[/]="http://s295.photobu…"] [/]
I realize the control room window is not placed correctly, I'd change that.
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MadMax, post: 406111 wrote: Again... it's not just dimensions th
MadMax, post: 406111 wrote: Again... it's not just dimensions that can make or break a room... it's also the materials that you assemble the room with... AND how they're put together.... including the fastening hardware.
Even for interior room acoustics? Is that cause of room resonances?
On the topic of room ratios.. For my control room I'm going to h
On the topic of room ratios..
For my control room I'm going to have the ability to be able to build it to a recommended ratio, both the BBC ratio and Golden Ratio
gave me just about identical (give or take a 1/2 inch) ratios which will be 8ft ceilings X 13ft wide X 21 ft long.
So this is a good start, right?
Kurt Foster, post: 406107 wrote: [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.csgnetwo…"]click here[/]="http://www.csgnetwo…"]click here[/]and i'm glad Space posted the link to the BBC specs ... i looked but couldn't find them ... i think i saw them in the Everest book before ...
Thank you, Kurt.
I'm trying to rap my brain around this calculator. I put in 30 hz and it gave me the wavelength in ft of "25894736.842105266".
How do I apply it to my room? So I can figure out how big of monitors to get?
ok... sow I'm gonna upset the whole apple cart and let you in on
ok... sow I'm gonna upset the whole apple cart and let you in on another bit of aggravation... (heheheh)
The BBC has a HUGE library of information that you really need to get familiar with:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/search?Type=Publications&Decade=All
(Check out the 40's and 50's especially close... EXCELLENT info)
There's one paper in particular that you'll find that clearly indicates some minimum and optimum room volumes. For a mix environment, they found that rooms of a MINIMUM of 3000 cubic ft made getting accurately "flat" frequency responses much easier. (IIRC, the volume is a range from 3000 cu ft to 5000 cu ft.
There's goes your 2184 cu ft idea using a ceiling height of 8', huh? Besides... 8ft ceilings are still subject to needing an overhead cloud as they're just too low to not give you early reflections.
MadMax, post: 406120 wrote: ok... sow I'm gonna upset the whole
MadMax, post: 406120 wrote: ok... sow I'm gonna upset the whole apple cart and let you in on another bit of aggravation... (heheheh)
The BBC has a HUGE library of information that you really need to get familiar with:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.bbc.co.u…"]Search - BBC R&D[/]="http://www.bbc.co.u…"]Search - BBC R&D[/]
(Check out the 40's and 50's especially close... EXCELLENT info)There's one paper in particular that you'll find that clearly indicates some minimum and optimum room volumes. For a mix environment, they found that rooms of a MINIMUM of 3000 cubic ft made getting accurately "flat" frequency responses much easier. (IIRC, the volume is a range from 3000 cu ft to 5000 cu ft.
There's goes your 2184 cu ft idea using a ceiling height of 8', huh? Besides... 8ft ceilings are still subject to needing an overhead cloud as they're just too low to not give you early reflections.
Alright, will do!
Okay, I'm glad you pointed that out, very interesting and good to know. Now I'm thinking because of my 8ft ceilings I can't have a optimal dimension room that is at least 3000 cubic feet, right? Or is there a way?
If you look at my original post I have the layout of the space I have to work with, the right half of it (Big half) has 9ft ceilings. The more I learn, the more I understand kmetals point of having that bigger half the "control room", and then have the other portion for a small tracking room for vocals and such? Then, I'll just have to track drums at a big studio with a big live room, and bring my hard-drive home for mixing? Then I can do vocals and overdubs at my house. If I made the left side a control room with the golden ratio dimensions of 9ft ceiling x 23ft 6 in long x 14 ft 6 in wide, it would be 3101 cubic ft.
What do you think about that idea?
ChrisH, post: 406119 wrote: On the topic of room ratios.. For my
ChrisH, post: 406119 wrote: On the topic of room ratios..
For my control room I'm going to have the ability to be able to build it to a recommended ratio, both the BBC ratio and Golden Ratio
gave me just about identical (give or take a 1/2 inch) ratios which will be 8ft ceilings X 13ft wide X 21 ft long.
So this is a good start, right?
An option is Louden's optimum ratio taken to 3 significant digits, becomin 1:1.5:2.2 and in that range. For molre information, see
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://forum.studio…"]Acoustics Forum • View topic - ROOM RATIOS: M.M. LOUDEN ANALYSIS[/]="http://forum.studio…"]Acoustics Forum • View topic - ROOM RATIOS: M.M. LOUDEN ANALYSIS[/]
Andre
I'm probably gonna be deferring to Andre here in a short bit...
I'm probably gonna be deferring to Andre here in a short bit... but until then... (hehehehe)
I'd seriously consider just making it all a nice one room studio, and make gobo's to place around things... other than that "turret" shaped are that I'd prolly make an iso booth.
You maximize your volume, and minimize your financial outlay.
The volume of space gets you above 3000 cu ft, and while it may not be an optimal ratio, you can deal with most of the issues by only having to perform minimal wall movements.... which would allow for a bit more bass trapping anyway...
avare, post: 406124 wrote: An option is Louden's optimum ratio t
avare, post: 406124 wrote: An option is Louden's optimum ratio taken to 3 significant digits, becomin 1:1.5:2.2 and in that range. For molre information, see
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://forum.studio…"]Acoustics Forum • View topic - ROOM RATIOS: M.M. LOUDEN ANALYSIS[/]="http://forum.studio…"]Acoustics Forum • View topic - ROOM RATIOS: M.M. LOUDEN ANALYSIS[/]
Andre
Some great advice, thank you
MadMax, post: 406126 wrote: I'm probably gonna be deferring to A
MadMax, post: 406126 wrote: I'm probably gonna be deferring to Andre here in a short bit... but until then... (hehehehe)
I'd seriously consider just making it all a nice one room studio, and make gobo's to place around things... other than that "turret" shaped are that I'd prolly make an iso booth.
You maximize your volume, and minimize your financial outlay.
The volume of space gets you above 3000 cu ft, and while it may not be an optimal ratio, you can deal with most of the issues by only having to perform minimal wall movements.... which would allow for a bit more bass trapping anyway...
I'm open to that idea, did you see the layout of my last "studio"? It's a 300 sqft one room awkward "utah" shaped setup, my mixing erea is at the top in that divy, I've made that work for 6 years, it has lots of treatment (fully clouded ceiling, floor to ceiling bass traps in every corner, and some absorption on the walls).
Anyway, I'm used to tracking drums in the same room with and don't really find it a problem, so yeah I agree with you, a one room setup would be fine with me as long as it is what's best acoustically? Drums don't sound great in that old room of course, do you think they'll sound much better in this new "one room design", since i'll be going from 2100 cubic ft to almost 6000 cubic ft? I understand that way more goes into a great sounding room for drums than the cubic ft but that's gotta get me something better for recording, right?
Thank you for the compliment Max. The most important thing is t
Thank you for the compliment Max. The most important thing is that ChrisH makes an informed decision.
ChrisH:
Did you look through the Cox ratios for one close to your space? Especially the second best ones? With a ~4800 ft³ room, you can have great drum sounds, along several with other acoustic instruments. Have you visited local studios with similar sized roms and listened to them critically? I am thinking of smaller rooms that would be similar to size if split up the space. The most important that thing that I emphathize is my signature line.
avare, post: 406143 wrote: ChrisH: Did you look through the Cox
avare, post: 406143 wrote:
ChrisH:
Did you look through the Cox ratios for one close to your space? Especially the second best ones? With a ~4800 ft³ room, you can have great drum sounds, along several with other acoustic instruments. Have you visited local studios with similar sized roms and listened to them critically? I am thinking of smaller rooms that would be similar to size if split up the space. The most important that thing that I emphathize is my signature line.
Yes, I just looked at them again. If the ratios arn't scalable, and my total cubic meter size being 167, how should I apply them? If i fallow those ratios then I'll have to split it up into two rooms, correct? I have not visited any local studios with similar sized rooms, just larger ones.
I will fallow your signature line, no worries.
I'm trying to figure out the math that I do to use these Cox ratios?
Math was never my subject.
Here's what I came up with for the ratio of 1:3.45:3.78 with the starting dimension of 9 ft for the ceilings.
= 9ft X 31.05 X 34.02
ChrisH, post: 406147 wrote: With 9.6 and a "best" ratio of 1:1.2
ChrisH, post: 406147 wrote: With 9.6 and a "best" ratio of 1:1.26:1.48 in the 100m3 category I get..
9.6 X 12.096 X 14.208
OK, you're not understanding my point....
Go through every single ratio and apply it to varying ceiling heights...
Again, golden ratios, or any/all the other ratios are IDEAL situations... of which you are likely to NOT come up with a number that's gonna fit your EXACT dimensions... HOWEVER, you WILL find at LEAST 2 or 3... and up to maybe 6 or 8 different possible dimensions that fit JUST within... or JUST outside... your existing dimensions.
START THERE.
OH yeah... one MINOR detail about those ratios... they aren't for the placement of studs... they aren't to the center of a wall... they're to the FINISHED INTERIOR SURFACE OF THE ENCLOSURE!... taking into account the studs, gypsum, wall coverings etc.
Remember what I've said before... and Rod, Space, Andre' and a whole herd of other folks who know, will pretty much back me up on this... As long as you're close enough on the ratio... you're actually just fine.
BUT, how close is close enough?
Lets examine the math... Lets start with 1:1.26:1.48... and a ceiling height of 10'-0" and go downward, 1" at a time. Your maximum room size is 10x24x33 (roughly)... (we still don't really know where that is measured to, exactly.. but for illustrative purposes, it's close enough.)
1:1.26 first:
10x12.6'
9'-11"x12.495'
9'-10"x12.39'
9'-9"x12.285'
9'-8"x12.18'
9'-7"x12.075
9'-6"x11.97'
Now... lets be realistic about sumpin'... What's the difference between 12.6 and 12.495?? It's 0.1 INCHES!! ONE TENTH of an inch!! Damit son... you're gonna' have that much warp between any two studs, joists or anywhere else!! So... that tenth of an inch is gonna make THAT much difference?? Prolly not... in rare cases... yes... VERY RARE cases. But for the most part.. you should quickly see that ratios are nice... and they're great to shoot for... but you gotta be realistic here. You can't go too far either way in just plain sloppiness... as the numbers, while small, are significant, and can add up to a big pile of "oh shit" real quick. So, don't fret over ratios... molecular chaos will not let you get to perfection... get over it!
Your room's "natural ratio" is 1:2.4:3.3 in it's present state, given your current measurements (10x24x33), and a volume of 7920 cu ft.
The ratio of 1:2.4 ain't so good... the ratio of width to length (24:33) is 1.375... which isn't bad at all... but it will have some harmonic build up.
So, while it ain't "perfect"... I'd suggest going through ALL of the ratios and find the ratio that closet fits your "1:2.4:3.3"... I think you'll find it's somewhere around Sepmeyer's C: 1:1.6:2.3...
Let's look at it quickly... Well, lo and behold... if we take 1:2.4 (Your existing) and take 10x1.6... we come out right at 16'... hmmmm... mighty close to the 17' you have... hmmmmm... well, well, well... what have we here?!?!?
We have a possible winner??? 10x17x24... maybe... Well crap, the 24's pretty much in the wrong direction... That's gonna make for some wonky sized leftover space to deal with.
Again, do this with ALL the ratios... but measure THEM against your space... not the other way around!
What I'm guessing you'll find is that no matter where you go in the enclosure, making two rooms of similar size is going to be relatively impossible... (e.g. any ratio'd mix room plus what's left over.... (~ 7900 cu ft/2)
The only saving grace to the space (for me) is that I'm really diggin' on that turret for a chamber verb... (it would be KILLA to hang a plate in!) or as a focused space in which to make a computer/machine room. It'd be easy to keep cool.
Maybe it would work as an Iso, but I'd need to have some eyeballs on it to tell. That circular space is going to concentrate sound in the center... which might be ok... IF you could control and direct the reflections correctly. Otherwise, round rooms are hella noted to not be good for "good" sound. I'd think you'd wanna extend the space with at least some sort of compound angle to maybe step into to get that concentration behind the primary mic???? Sumpin' to think on.
But, at least THAT kind of framing would allow me to think about using that 24' length to use for maybe another iso? or 2?? Hmmmmm... One nice big LEDE room that you can tuck amplifiers into some cabinet sized iso's on one wall?? Yeah... I could see that working. You could use the space above the iso's for storage or with swinging gobo's - hard/soft sided.
The fact that you really want both a mix room AND a tracking room, neither of which can I personally justify given that you're a just a coupla' hundred sq feet short to be able to really do it right (which sux)... I'd set one end up as your mix position... AND set it up correctly!!!! Treat for as flat of a response as you can, and get the other end out of your hearing range, because it's nice and WAY back there.
Make that end of the room as lively or as neutral as you want... but personally, I'd make a corner (or two) to where I could set up a bass amp or leslie and get some mojo cookin'!! If you can't get a groove on in a space because you've got it all flat?... it's not gonna be fun playing there... which goes back to defeating the purpose for what you want the space for in the first place... right???
So yes... look at the ratios... but be realistic in how you apply them and work them into your plan... keeping an eye on them, but don't worship them... and realize that you need to constantly rethink your options in terms of what's your best bang for the buck. Eventually, you'll awaken from a migrane or drunken stupor (or both) and make a decision on how it's gonna be done.
Room ratios seem to be the biggest hangup for those starting int
Room ratios seem to be the biggest hangup for those starting into this...by design it is so we do not build square or cubed rooms..simply as that.
But throw in "Acoustics" and the believer gets unhinged.
By far the biggest issue is flanking, Electrical, HVAC, framing connections, ect.
so far i really like the idea of either just one big room, or ma
so far i really like the idea of either just one big room, or making the multi sided corner an iso booth, or machine room. very much love the idea of a reverb chamber. it con help add some 'signature' sounding reverb to your tracks, in a room that is a compromise of flattering and accurate. a small chamber can sound huge. allow you to use more close micing taking your room out the equation more. just an option, but a feasable one.
and really the sound is only gonna get 'so good' in any room, they're all limited by the experince, a budget, and a certian bit of luck. many world class facilities have been rebuilt, several times. even the great abbey road has been altered numerous times since those beatles days.
also a big part of this becomes ascetic choices, those are important for getting clients, and more importantly keeping yourself inspired. i always love when i'm in rooms that have a 'vibe' to them, whatever that may translate to you. some people like a living room, type feel, others the classic wooden slat style, others that modern high tech look. things like lighting, and spending cash on boring things like HVAC, are just as important to the artistic side of this room that your gonna spend so much time in. the mintiaes of of acoustics are interesting, but budget, and existing conditions will help make those choices for you. i think the first stevie ray vaughn album was done in a big old wharehouse, live in like a couple days.
these people like space, max, and avarare know alot more than i do, i 've found that adhereing to the basics, will get you quite far. then hopefully you'll find a plan that your happy w/, built it how it's been proven to build, and have a nice room that you like. i think one of things we should talk about is what you can realistically afford, what you would and would not be comfortable compromising on. at least you have some room treatment already, that's a good thing.
i'm imagining one room w/ a machine room, or chamber, i think a chamber is more fun than a machine room, and i don't think an sm57 is pickup a computer fan 20ft away. the 9ft side w/ an RFZ, w/ your panels, and cloud, then some gobo's behind you. then in the recording side, some diffusion, or slats, the kit, some absorption above it and a couple gobos to the sides. those reflections from the 8ft ceilings are probably not to going to be adding anything useful right above the kit. i think w/ a chamber you can afford to go w/ a slighlty more 'controlled' sound of the drum room, not make it dead, but have a simpler design, and just more of a 'tight' sound back there, which should make it easier on the accuracy of the listening side, and some diffusion keeping some life for all things concerned.
A great job walking through room ratios Max. Great point about
A great job walking through room ratios Max. Great point about the precision of ratios. The room's "natural ratio" is one of Cox's second best ratios (line 12378 in the spreadsheet). I suggest greater studying of Cox's ratios, ChrisH, once you are more comfortable with the concept.
Andre
MadMax, post: 406154 wrote: The fact that you really want both
MadMax, post: 406154 wrote:
The fact that you really want both a mix room AND a tracking room, neither of which can I personally justify given that you're a just a coupla' hundred sq feet short to be able to really do it right (which sux)... I'd set one end up as your mix position... AND set it up correctly!!!! Treat for as flat of a response as you can, and get the other end out of your hearing range, because it's nice and WAY back there.
Make that end of the room as lively or as neutral as you want... but personally, I'd make a corner (or two) to where I could set up a bass amp or leslie and get some mojo cookin'!! If you can't get a groove on in a space because you've got it all flat?... it's not gonna be fun playing there... which goes back to defeating the purpose for what you want the space for in the first place... right???
So yes... look at the ratios... but be realistic in how you apply them and work them into your plan... keeping an eye on them, but don't worship them... and realize that you need to constantly rethink your options in terms of what's your best bang for the buck. Eventually, you'll awaken from a migrane or drunken stupor (or both) and make a decision on how it's gonna be done.
I understand your point now, thank you.
How much more sqft exactly do I need to have both a tracking room and mixing room? I could most likely make some more square footage happen, with some convincing and sacrificing the bathroom. When looking at the illustration of the space I have, the bathroom could be sized differently and the bottom wall of the "live room" could be pushed back? Yes I agree with your point of having the tracking space have some mojo.
I also appreciate you helping me brain storm Ideas for putting iso spots and stuff.
I am confused to where you guys are thinking I could put a reverb chamber?
Ill upload a video tour of the basement.
I made a video tour of my basement, hope this helps somehow. [[u
I made a video tour of my basement, hope this helps somehow.
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.youtube…"]Pre Studio Build Basement Walk Through - YouTube[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Pre Studio Build Basement Walk Through - YouTube[/]
Nice walkthrough... thanx... That does help. Two things... seri
Nice walkthrough... thanx... That does help.
Two things... seriously.... FIRST AND FOREMOST get some sort of cad program.... Sketchup is plenty fine. It's reasonably easy for most folks. (It confuses the hell out of me, but I grew up on autocad) and start to get familiar with it now! Second, invest in a good camera and document everything.
yeah good video helps put things in perceptive more. that cinder
yeah good video helps put things in perceptive more. that cinder block room really increased the verb, tough to judge quality wise on my laptop, but most of the chambers i've seen pics of are basically smooth concrete, or tile rooms w/ a mic and possibly speakers. i think the reverb room at the powerstation is just a stairwell they put a mic and speaker in. pretty sure it's concrete.
as far as that room as an iso room all that concrete goes a long way towards iso, leaving mainly the ceiling to add mass to. weather or not it could be made flattering enough to be worth it would take some more thought.
seeming like you have the potential for a really nice home studio, it's gonna be fun to watch.
i'm curious about how the 'possible' extra 10 feet you could get does to the modal activity in your room. also it's very nice to have a bathroom in the studio, it keeps the whole thing away from the rest of the house. and gives a different possible room for a reflection based room. if you have a door down there that goes outside, that eliminates the need for any musicians to have to go upstairs. this keeps 'shady characters' where you can keep an eye, and the potentially awkward situations that could occur w/ musicians going thru the house at all times of day and night. that would be 'ultimate' IMHO privilages to have in a home studio, that the for or five home studious i've worked out of, didn't have. it was always one or the other. Cool stuff man!!!!!!!
MadMax, post: 406173 wrote: Nice walkthrough... thanx... That do
MadMax, post: 406173 wrote: Nice walkthrough... thanx... That does help.
Two things... seriously.... FIRST AND FOREMOST get some sort of cad program.... Sketchup is plenty fine. It's reasonably easy for most folks. (It confuses the hell out of me, but I grew up on autocad) and start to get familiar with it now! Second, invest in a good camera and document everything.
I got stechup but it doesn't want to run on my version of OS X. So I'm trying to figure that out.
Good camera, check!
Glad the video helps
kmetal, post: 406175 wrote: yeah good video helps put things in
kmetal, post: 406175 wrote: yeah good video helps put things in perceptive more. that cinder block room really increased the verb, tough to judge quality wise on my laptop, but most of the chambers i've seen pics of are basically smooth concrete, or tile rooms w/ a mic and possibly speakers. i think the reverb room at the powerstation is just a stairwell they put a mic and speaker in. pretty sure it's concrete.
as far as that room as an iso room all that concrete goes a long way towards iso, leaving mainly the ceiling to add mass to. weather or not it could be made flattering enough to be worth it would take some more thought.
seeming like you have the potential for a really nice home studio, it's gonna be fun to watch.
i'm curious about how the 'possible' extra 10 feet you could get does to the modal activity in your room. also it's very nice to have a bathroom in the studio, it keeps the whole thing away from the rest of the house. and gives a different possible room for a reflection based room. if you have a door down there that goes outside, that eliminates the need for any musicians to have to go upstairs. this keeps 'shady characters' where you can keep an eye, and the potentially awkward situations that could occur w/ musicians going thru the house at all times of day and night. that would be 'ultimate' IMHO privilages to have in a home studio, that the for or five home studious i've worked out of, didn't have. it was always one or the other. Cool stuff man!!!!!!!
Yes, I'd like to have a bathroom even if it's only 3 ft wide.
Glad you guys are as excited about this as I am (y)
oooops... Don't hang yourself... Make that bathroom bigger than
oooops...
Don't hang yourself... Make that bathroom bigger than 3x5!!
The chamber you've got in that brick room is wonnerful... USE THAT!!!
That "turret" shaped area in the corner I think could probably be used as the guts of an iso booth... but those windows are gonna be a bit wonky to work with, and it's really going to depend upon the actual dimensions. (THIS is where you can work on ratios to help establish some size considerations.... but it's ALL gonna be guess work if based upon ratios alone.)
Andre can prolly give you a better idea of how much additional volume you would really need to get to at least BBC standards... but IIRC, the "nominal" volume for a recording environment is somewhere around 4200-4500 cu ft?? (That number sticks in my head for some reason) (3500+4500=8000) So, you're close... real close. It's really the limitations of your dimensions that will be the issue to resolve.
One consideration would be to use an AVERAGE height of 9', and angle the ceiling front to back, from 8' up to a maximum of 10'... and make sure the halfway point is indeed 9 feet.
I'm afraid that dealing with that main load bearing beam is gonna prove to be a bit more expensive that you think. You're talking about replacing that beam/wall construction for a pretty hefty piece of steel. Thankfully you've got clear access with those windows, so that's gonna make the job lots easier... but man... it's gonna be some serious dosh for that beam... you'll need structural engineering approval for both the beam and the process to remove the old one. It looks like it should be straight forward... but you never know.
Andre can prolly give you a better idea of how much additional v
Andre can prolly give you a better idea of how much additional volume you would really need to get to at least BBC standards... but IIRC, the "nominal" volume for a recording environment is somewhere around 4200-4500 cu ft?? (That number sticks in my head for some reason) (3500+4500=8000) So, you're close... real close
The nominal size for rooms in the AES/BBC/EBU/ITU recommendations is 3500 ft³.
I am looking forward to the Sketchup drawing (hint,hint)!
avare, post: 406186 wrote: The nominal size for rooms in the AES
avare, post: 406186 wrote: The nominal size for rooms in the AES/BBC/EBU/ITU recommendations is 3500 ft³.
I am looking forward to the Sketchup drawing (hint,hint)!
haha, I'll take the hint.
Do you guys wanting me to do a sketchup of the entire basement space that's available, in its existing state?
Or a sketchup with some possible studio layouts?
ChrisH, post: 406189 wrote: haha, I'll take the hint. Now you gu
ChrisH, post: 406189 wrote: haha, I'll take the hint.
Now you guys wanting me to do a sketchup of the entire basement space that's available, in its existing state?
Or a sketchup with some possible studio layouts?
Yes. The first you will make regardless. Save a copy of the current state when finished. After that, draw ideas and save them under different names. Sketchup is a very powerful and (relatively) easy to use 3d drawing program.
ChrisH, post: 406188 wrote: OSX 10.6.8 Intel Core i5 Check thi
ChrisH, post: 406188 wrote: OSX 10.6.8
Intel Core i5
Check this page before you upgrade the OS, might not be required.
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://support.goog…"]SketchUp Hardware and software requirements - SketchUp Help[/]="http://support.goog…"]SketchUp Hardware and software requirements - SketchUp Help[/]
avare, post: 406186 wrote: The nominal size for rooms in the AES
avare, post: 406186 wrote: The nominal size for rooms in the AES/BBC/EBU/ITU recommendations is 3500 ft³.
I am looking forward to the Sketchup drawing (hint,hint)!
Thanx Andre!! I can always count on you to keep me on the straight and narrow!! So, if I'm wrong about this... please let me know.
I can't remember if it was at Salford or possibly EBU, that medium sized enclosures were discussed at some length in a paper about small-medium sized performance halls... and some conclusions about ideally centering in the middle of each range of sizes allowed for the widest possible area for even spectral diffusion and greatest ease of obtaining natural reverberation and resultant RT60's in the >1.0 Sec range that didn't suck in character. I don't think I was able to get a copy of that paper on backup, and it'll take me awhile to spin up the drives and search... But I wanna say it had to have been around 2004/2005?
Parts of the paper were in Flemish or possibly French or Russian? (I knew I well over my head just looking over the math... so I was doubly confused reading... )
I'm pretty sure the paper was broken down into: 4000-10000 cu ft (broadcast/transmission), 10000-50000 cu ft (civic halls and auditoria) 50000-70000?? (Churches and opera houses)
Several guys at (Studio Tips?!?) had some really great takes on the advantages of medium spaces... including nicer reverbs, effective multi-use acoustics, versatility and ease of transition from session to session. The paper covered 3 ranges of spaces/uses and mainly dealt with proposed seating and the effects of human mass as an acoustic attenuator... or some such silliness. I'm pretty sure it was studio tips because it was an academic presentation.
The disadvantage was that they didn't like the idea of mixing in such a large environment... which I actually find an appealing prospect.
I know I was still designing on paper and hadn't made the transition to CAD yet. I made notes to that effect and why I was looking for spaces 9000 cu ft or more for the longest time, and ended up jumping on this property when we found it. (16800 cu ft)
As rooms smaller than 3000 cu ft, just don't have enough volume to create a natural reverberation, that isn't of such short duration that they tend to cause smearing and phase distortions, I'd want as big of a tracking room as I could allow for...
And I'm a greedy pig when it comes to mixing... The bigger the room, the better... as the only thing I wanna hear is the music coming out of the speakers. I won't hear anything coming from behind me or my sides, unless it's there in a 5.1 mix. Gettin' splash off the console is bad enough.
I want that space to give me as flat of a response as is possible... preferably following the exact same specs as the speakers generating the signal. (That ain't gonna happen, btw) Almost every single room has a low end "tip up" from low frequencies setting up nodes in the corners.
(There are a few rooms that don't have "tip-up" but neither you, nor I, and 10 of our friends each, could we afford to build one.)
I want to see the sketchup's, too!
I've been running SketchUp ver. 8 for quite a while on my OSX 10
I've been running SketchUp ver. 8 for quite a while on my OSX 10.6.8 / Intel laptop without any trouble.
I'm using the same version/build (8.0.16845) on an OSX 10.7.5 / Intel desktop as well.
So if your computer has the other minimum requirements Space pointed you to, you're ready to go. Your processor and OS are capable as is.
So I got sketchup, i've been playing with it, and watching the t
So I got sketchup, i've been playing with it, and watching the tutorial videos.
Hopefully soon I'll have a good one of my unfinished basement and some layout ideas.
However, I'm curious how many hours it took you guys to get fluid with sketchup and be able to make a detailed and accurate design?
ChrisH, post: 406235 wrote: I'm curious how many hours it took y
ChrisH, post: 406235 wrote: I'm curious how many hours it took you guys to get fluid with sketchup and be able to make a detailed and accurate design?
You've watched a tutorial, so you should be off to a good start. Hopefully you've got a two-button mouse with a scroll wheel.
I've been using SketchUp for about 5 years. I tried drawing without watching the tutorial and was hopelessly confused. I watched the video tutorial and was sketching pretty well an hour or two later. If I may, let me give you a few highlights you need to grasp to become proficient quickly. You may have already picked up on some of these, but I'm betting a couple of these things will help.
TIP#1: Check your Preferences / Template to see what your default template is (inches / feet / meters / whatever you prefer) I'd suggest picking Architectural Design - Feet and Inches.
TIP #2: The first thing you need to be sure of when you're drawing, is make sure you really know what angle you're viewing from. Make sure your toolbar includes the 6 little house icons (angle view, top view, front view, side view, other side view and back view) if they're not up in your toolbar you may just need to stretch your window to full width to see them, or you may need to Customize your Toolbar under View to include them.
AND/OR learn the shortcut keystrokes using the Apple Command Key and numbers 1-7 which are in a slightly different order.
Command 1 = top view
Command 2 = bottom view
Command 3 = front view
Command 4 = back view
Command 5 = left side view
Command 6 = right side view
Command 7 = angle view
TIP #3: I almost always start in top view and use the arrow tool and select the default person they usually deposit at the origin point and delete them, they're just going to get in the way. (Unless you feel like it helps you keep oriented correctly, but bear in mind that 2D person will always turn to face you no matter what direction you are observing from.)
I start most of my drawings in top view starting at the origin point where the red, green, and blue axes meet and draw the floor. A yellow dot will come up when your drawing tool is at that point (blue is your vertical axis, red and green are your length and width.)
TIP #4: I'd recommend that you start drawing with the rectangle tool. Draw a rectangle of any size without worrying about the dimensions. Then (before you do anything else) look in the lower right corner of the SketchUp window and it will tell you the dimensions of the rectangle you just drew. (in Architectural Design mode, it will show to the nearest 1/16"). At this point you can enter your desired dimensions separated by a comma. [my default preferences are set to inches, so to draw a 24ft x 33ft rectangle I could use the keypad to enter either the inches 288,396
Or you could enter it in standard ft. & in. format 33',24'
If you would rather the length and width were reversed - just enter the numbers in the other order 24',33'
Likewise with your other dimension you can enter either 17.5' or 17' 6" to express the same dimension.
You can enter decimal equivalents to fractions, or put them in normal fraction form SketchUp will take whatever you throw at it: 9' 7 3/4" OR 9' 7.75" or 115.75 Just make sure you have your ' marks sorted out.
The last thing I'll leave you to hopefully take some grunt-work out of the learning curve is this.
TIP #5: When you start drawing with the pencil tool, look for the visual clues SketchUp is trying to give you regarding what direction that line is going. Each axis is a different color. As you're starting out and you're using the Orbit tool to turn your drawing you can easily become fooled by what looks like a line connecting 2 points, only to find one or more of your lines are off at some crazy tangent angle and really miles away from where they appear. When you're using the pencil tool on plane with one of the 3 axes, (which is what you want 99% of the time) the line will turn red, green, or blue. If your keyboard has up/down/left/right keys, you might try holding those while you draw lines too.
The Up arrow key will force the line you're drawing onto the vertical (blue) axis.
The Left arrow key will force your line onto the green axis and The Right arrow key forces the line onto the red axis.
Again, you can enter the length of the line with the keypad rather than trying to get it perfect with your mouse.
The pencil tool will also give you visual cues when you're parallel to another line, at a half way point, or at a right angle to another line - and much more once you learn what to look for.
Next up: The Rotate and Offset Tools.
Best of luck.
An excellent tip from Space. Grouping things together is a grea
An excellent tip from Space. Grouping things together is a great way to avoid unwanted changes to your basic objects / shapes.
Remember when you have items grouped you can still edit that item, you just have to double-click until you get through enough group layers to get to the specific thing you want to change.
Tip #6: If you do decide to go nuts with the Pencil Tool, using those Arrow Keys will make it much easier. Not only will it make sure you're on the right plane, but you when you have one line or shape already at the desired height/length/width - you just hold the Arrow that corresponds with the direction you want to draw and take the Pencil to the neighboring object that ends where you want your line to end. The line you're drawing will continue on the correct path, even though your pencil is touching the neighboring object. Your line is now automatically going the right direction and the same length. If you notice the line turning Pink, that's a good thing. In this case it means it's parallel to the other line you just touched.
Tip #7: Rather than drawing a bunch of lines to give your 2D floor plan the 3rd dimension (height), use the Push/Pull Tool and pull the floor up to the desired height. Again, use the numeric keypad to enter the exact height. You won't be able to see into the box you just made, but you can always select the top with the arrow and delete the just the top.
Tip #8: To duplicate an item, a shape, a line, a line segment, group, or anything - select the item(s) with the Arrow - then choose the Move Tool. Now hold the Option key while you drag the duplicates in the desired direction/on the desired axis. Guess what, you can numerically enter the distance those items move. In most cases, you'll want to drag these duplicate things beyond the edges of their originals - or they might inadvertently merge with them. That rarely ends well. Another case where grouping your objects is a good idea because it keeps them from merging together until you want them to.
Tip #9: The Rotate Tool can be tricky too. It's really handy for creating precise angles, but make sure it's on the correct plane. It will rotate anything you select in absolutely any direction on any plane, so look for the tool to turn blue, green, or red to see which specific plane it is turning on. Sometimes I will group the item(s) I want to rotate and then draw a small box outside the group near the point I want the item(s) to pivot on. Sometimes it's a lot easier to get the blue, green, red, Rotate tool on the appropriate side of a small cube.
Tip #10: The Offset Tool is great for giving your walls some thickness. If you have 10" thick block wall and want your interior dimension to be 20', I've found it's easier for me to make the rectangle 20' 20" - then use the Offset Tool to determine the 10" thickness. (numerically of course) Just pull the Offset in and enter 10. Then just pull the 10" border you just created up to the desired height. Yes, the Offset Tool can also expand outside of the perimeter, but I've found the results more unpredictable that way.
I hope you find at least a couple nuggets in there that make sense and help you along.
Experiment, have fun.
Thank you for tips, very helpful. I'm sort of getting a hang of
Thank you for tips, very helpful. I'm sort of getting a hang of sketchup.
This is sort of off topic but is acoustic related. Just looking for some short yes or no answers.
I've gotta record a 3 piece ska band this week and I'm curious about
tracking the drums in my living room instead of my small "studio" room, just for this band, over the period of 2 days, not a permanent solution.
I don't really have time for much trial and error, since the band is on a tight time frame.
The room has vaulted ceilings with a peak of 17' and the lowest being 10', the room has "pocket" rooms but the closest wall dimensions are 32' x 30.
I figured I'd put the drums in the corner by the glass doors, which is right under the peak of the ceiling height.
Is it worth trying? I'd have to pack my imac, rackmount box with the interface and pres, cables, mics, and stands.
Monitoring while tracking will have to be done with headphones or my mixcubes I suppose.
I figure for tracking drums this room could possibly be better than my small 9 ft ceiling 12X16 treated room.
Heres photos of my living room
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm150/ch-holt/livingroom1.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm150/ch-holt/livingroom3.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm150/ch-holt/livingroom2.jpg
Again... it's not just dimensions that can make or break a room.
Again... it's not just dimensions that can make or break a room... it's also the materials that you assemble the room with... AND how they're put together.... including the fastening hardware.
Simple (IRRITATING) fact... assembling some things, you can't use enough glue, nails or screws... other things, you use too many, and the assembly becomes useless.
MANY folks are going to extole the wonderous virtues of sofit mounting... including me to an extent... however, proper design of a room for sofit mounts has to be done for a particular speaker. In most cases, if you change speakers... guess what?? You have to re-engineer the sofits (and to a lesser extent the wall itself) to account for the new speaker enclosures... which most likely won't, but can effect your entire room and may cause reworking your entire room. (depending on how tweaky you are about the room response.)
Not sofit mounting has it's pluses and minuses... You don't have the advantage of putting the drivers in half wave mode, which means you must now deal with SBIR and a few other details... but the real advantage is that with nominal effort, you can swap speakers at any time and within' hours, be back up and running... and you don't hafta' plan the entire room around one set of speakers.
The way I thought about it was like this... Is it worth spending all that time calculating and frettin'-n-sweatin' for a cheap set of speakers?? (e.g. something less than $5k each) My own conclusion for MY particular situation was no... because I'm expecting the occasional engineer to bring in his own monitors for tracking or mix. That, and I was NOT dead set on what my final monitoring would be. Therefor, soffit mounting would have been a waste of time... but I damn sure went through the motions of checking it out.
That's not to say that it's not worth sofit mounting even NS10's... just the opposite... it's really an individual thing and plenty of smaller shops have sofit mounted fairly small speakers with excellent results.
You have to evaluate and decide for yourself what you want to do... but I'll continually remind you (and others) to keep in mind your age, family status and how long you plan to be in the house. If you don't foresee staying there for the rest of your life, I'd look long and hard at sofit mounting, as it's gonna damn near impossible to sell the property to someone other than another musician or engineer. But if you make it more convenient to convert the space into a home theater, you've built in some actual return on your investment that really just a money pit otherwise.
All in all, the learning curve on all this insanity is kinda' steep once you really dig in... so don't let it overwhelm you any more than you can help it. You'll get it.